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I can't imagine government employment and software engineering culture ever meeting. In a government job seniority and time in job counts more than competence.

I can't imagine government employment and software engineering culture ever meeting. In a government job seniority and time in job counts more than competence. You sit on your ass for long enough and you get more for it. In the Bay Area the new and young eat the still beating hearts any of the old and cranky people who made the poor decision to mentally check out later in their career and stopped learning. Most engineers who want a career don't check out because they know this, the fire inside them never dies. This field is fast paced, and the government bureaucracy is antithetical to fast moving changes. It crushes souls, it does not inspire innovation. Not even powerful technology behemoths with lots of brain power can save themselves from new kids beating out new technology in their dorm room. How could the federal government ever adapt to such a system? Expect more healthcare.gov disasters until they figure this out. I am specific about the Bay Area although I know some other places are similiar because I've seen cultures clash when a big company from Texas acquire some new SF startup and the cultures collide when you have a place where being friendly is important meet a startup where competence is the only currency that counts. It doesn't matter if you're friendly, it doesn't matter how long you've been in that position, here nobody cares about these things, although being friendly is nice it is not enough, and in many places you can get by somehow in a way you can't in the Bay Area tech scene.

angersock 12y ago
Mind elaborating on your experience with the TX/SF foulup?
withdavidli 12y ago
The valuing of seniority hits a nerve. There's an inability to reward top performers even if the person's supervisor knows they deserve more pay. Pay is heavily determined by years of experience and their step system. Granted merits do come into play a lot more regarding promotions, there's also circumstances when teams promote an individual "up and out" so they won't have to deal with them anymore. It's so hard to fire someone, it's easier to promote them.... This is a recipe to losing the best and brightest. In addition to this, the slowness and amount of red tape they have to deal with. Tech culture, for better or worse, revolves around new technology and shipping vs. gov't tech with a lot of maintenance of legacy systems. One friend told me a military base's system is running on top of Pike (language), that no one knows. There was a stackoverflow thread that show about 6 people on the site uses it...
7Figures2Commas 12y ago
> ...meet a startup where competence is the only currency that counts. I don't disagree with your overall conclusion that it's going to be difficult for government to make itself more attractive to many segments of the labor pool, but this notion that Bay Area startups are pure meritocracies is a myth. Startups pass up highly competent candidates all the time (citing "culture fit") and while there may be somewhat less tolerance at small companies for employees who are completely incapable of carrying some weight (out of pure necessity), there are plenty of crappy, poorly-architected applications being built at Bay Area startups. You just don't encounter them every day because relatively few people actually use them. > It doesn't matter if you're friendly, it doesn't matter how long you've been in that position, here nobody cares about these things, although being friendly is nice it is not enough, and in many places you can get by somehow in a way you can't in the Bay Area tech scene. It's worth pointing out that many folks in the "Bay Area tech scene" would have a hard time getting by in other markets and industries if they could even get into them. Not every company in the Bay Area is Google or Palantir, and not every person who can thrive at the type of companies that are plentiful here is capable of thriving in environments where other types of skills may be more commonly required.
jbarham 12y ago
> I can't imagine government employment and software engineering culture ever meeting. In which case I suggest you read up on DARPA, CERN and Fraunhofer. And speaking of innovation, the Manhattan Project certainly produced some powerful technology, although IIRC not by "new kids in their dorm rooms".
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  Feynman was 24 when he joined the Manhattan project - right at the mid/lower end of what you would expect for a Google engineer.
  - _mulder_ 12y ago
    The question is though, where would he be working today? Government Sciences or Google/Tesla, et. al.?
- tomjen3 12y ago
  But that was back when you needed a big company to do things and it was in a big crisis situation (ie WWII).
batbomb 12y ago
It doesn't matter if you're friendly, it doesn't matter how long you've been in that position, here nobody cares about these things, although being friendly is nice it is not enough, and in many places you can get by somehow in a way you can't in the Bay Area tech scene. The problem is that this attitude overflows into everyday lives, and that's why people protest the Google bus. People don't want to live in a world with insensitive assholes that get their jobs done. They don't want to live in a brave new world devoid of history and culture, segregated by industry, education, age, and class. They especially don't want to live next door to the enlightened bay area techie that can't stop complaining about his company's acquisition by those darn Texans.
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Why should we care about them? Let them rot, if it comes to where we have to we have more money to buy guards than they have.
  - bkirkbri 12y ago
    Because we live in a world that is not homogeneous and are all enriched as a result. Ending up as one's own version of Howard Hughes, locked in a room with a gun and a pile of money, is unappealing to me.
    - tomjen3 12y ago
      I strongly disagree that we are enriched as a result. In fact if the world didn't have these conservatives in it we would have been much ahead. And just because there are some people you don't want to associate with doesn't mean you don't want to associate with people - just that after compulsory schooling I don't want to talk with/spend time with about 80% of the world. That leaves a bit over a billion, so it doesn't matter.
- bellerocky 12y ago
  People protest the Google Bus because cities let them use public bus spots and because big tech companies high pay is contributing to gentrification. It doesn't have anything to do with high efficiency and competency as a currency.
ArkyBeagle 12y ago
It is entirely possible that simply being unfriendly is a form of incompetence. It can be a pretty good marker for team dysfunction. I've had a few passive-aggressive teammates - I have a low threshold of tolerance for it. I work neither in SiVa nor the Bay Area ( by choice - no offense, but no thanks), I work in Texas and nobody in the building knows everything needed to do just about any one thing. Government employment is "risk-aversion first" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Think of the gummint as an insurance company with an army. It'll make more sense. It takes all kinds.
MisterBastahrd 12y ago
People who reach the highest echelons of government, whether it's research or bureaucracy, don't get there by sitting on their ass and drawing a paycheck. It's a ridiculous fairytale dreamt up by sad little idiots who believe themselves to be special because they're cogs in the wheel of private industry. None of these bespectacled t-shirt wearing, hoodie-ensconced "whizzes" would have a job or a place in society if it weren't for government employees and the projects they undertook.

angersock 12y ago

Mind elaborating on your experience with the TX/SF foulup?

withdavidli 12y ago

The valuing of seniority hits a nerve. There's an inability to reward top performers even if the person's supervisor knows they deserve more pay. Pay is heavily determined by years of experience and their step system. Granted merits do come into play a lot more regarding promotions, there's also circumstances when teams promote an individual "up and out" so they won't have to deal with them anymore. It's so hard to fire someone, it's easier to promote them.... This is a recipe to losing the best and brightest. In addition to this, the slowness and amount of red tape they have to deal with. Tech culture, for better or worse, revolves around new technology and shipping vs. gov't tech with a lot of maintenance of legacy systems. One friend told me a military base's system is running on top of Pike (language), that no one knows. There was a stackoverflow thread that show about 6 people on the site uses it...

7Figures2Commas 12y ago

> ...meet a startup where competence is the only currency that counts. I don't disagree with your overall conclusion that it's going to be difficult for government to make itself more attractive to many segments of the labor pool, but this notion that Bay Area startups are pure meritocracies is a myth. Startups pass up highly competent candidates all the time (citing "culture fit") and while there may be somewhat less tolerance at small companies for employees who are completely incapable of carrying some weight (out of pure necessity), there are plenty of crappy, poorly-architected applications being built at Bay Area startups. You just don't encounter them every day because relatively few people actually use them. > It doesn't matter if you're friendly, it doesn't matter how long you've been in that position, here nobody cares about these things, although being friendly is nice it is not enough, and in many places you can get by somehow in a way you can't in the Bay Area tech scene. It's worth pointing out that many folks in the "Bay Area tech scene" would have a hard time getting by in other markets and industries if they could even get into them. Not every company in the Bay Area is Google or Palantir, and not every person who can thrive at the type of companies that are plentiful here is capable of thriving in environments where other types of skills may be more commonly required.

jbarham 12y ago

> I can't imagine government employment and software engineering culture ever meeting. In which case I suggest you read up on DARPA, CERN and Fraunhofer. And speaking of innovation, the Manhattan Project certainly produced some powerful technology, although IIRC not by "new kids in their dorm rooms".

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
Feynman was 24 when he joined the Manhattan project - right at the mid/lower end of what you would expect for a Google engineer.
- _mulder_ 12y ago
  The question is though, where would he be working today? Government Sciences or Google/Tesla, et. al.?
tomjen3 12y ago
But that was back when you needed a big company to do things and it was in a big crisis situation (ie WWII).

batbomb 12y ago

It doesn't matter if you're friendly, it doesn't matter how long you've been in that position, here nobody cares about these things, although being friendly is nice it is not enough, and in many places you can get by somehow in a way you can't in the Bay Area tech scene. The problem is that this attitude overflows into everyday lives, and that's why people protest the Google bus. People don't want to live in a world with insensitive assholes that get their jobs done. They don't want to live in a brave new world devoid of history and culture, segregated by industry, education, age, and class. They especially don't want to live next door to the enlightened bay area techie that can't stop complaining about his company's acquisition by those darn Texans.

tomjen3 12y ago
Why should we care about them? Let them rot, if it comes to where we have to we have more money to buy guards than they have.
- bkirkbri 12y ago
  Because we live in a world that is not homogeneous and are all enriched as a result. Ending up as one's own version of Howard Hughes, locked in a room with a gun and a pile of money, is unappealing to me.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    I strongly disagree that we are enriched as a result. In fact if the world didn't have these conservatives in it we would have been much ahead. And just because there are some people you don't want to associate with doesn't mean you don't want to associate with people - just that after compulsory schooling I don't want to talk with/spend time with about 80% of the world. That leaves a bit over a billion, so it doesn't matter.
bellerocky 12y ago
People protest the Google Bus because cities let them use public bus spots and because big tech companies high pay is contributing to gentrification. It doesn't have anything to do with high efficiency and competency as a currency.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago

It is entirely possible that simply being unfriendly is a form of incompetence. It can be a pretty good marker for team dysfunction. I've had a few passive-aggressive teammates - I have a low threshold of tolerance for it. I work neither in SiVa nor the Bay Area ( by choice - no offense, but no thanks), I work in Texas and nobody in the building knows everything needed to do just about any one thing. Government employment is "risk-aversion first" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Think of the gummint as an insurance company with an army. It'll make more sense. It takes all kinds.

MisterBastahrd 12y ago

People who reach the highest echelons of government, whether it's research or bureaucracy, don't get there by sitting on their ass and drawing a paycheck. It's a ridiculous fairytale dreamt up by sad little idiots who believe themselves to be special because they're cogs in the wheel of private industry. None of these bespectacled t-shirt wearing, hoodie-ensconced "whizzes" would have a job or a place in society if it weren't for government employees and the projects they undertook.