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Until I read this article, I thought Singapore was a heaven - thanks to likes of Derek Sivers who had been beating drums on this without ever mentioning the its

by sytelus 12y ago

Until I read this article, I thought Singapore was a heaven - thanks to likes of Derek Sivers who had been beating drums on this without ever mentioning the its other side: http://sivers.org/singapore http://sivers.org/singapore. From now on I would read his stuff with huge grain of salt - or perhaps just stop reading him and wasting my time on these top tier bloggers who are out there to make money out of their readership.

ghshephard 12y ago
I've been here for a year - it's pretty damn nice country as long as you follow the rules.
psykotic 12y ago
There's been so much negative exposure of Singapore's human rights record that I'm surprised this revelation is what makes you flip the bit. It's completely in line with policies the PAP has been implementing since independence.
- frenchieinsg 12y ago
  I'd love to hear some examples, particularly recent. I was personally impressed by how light handed the country was with its enemies; for example, communist agitators and Chinese agents were merely exiled from the country (and in some cases later allowed back in), rather than jailed or executed as is more common in the region and in other "right wing" flavored governments.
  - toni 12y ago
    I think you should regularly read "Singapore Dissident"[1] a blog written by a Singaporean lawyer who is at the moment a political refugee in US. [1] http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/ http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/
    - frenchieinsg 12y ago
      Wording like that is not encouraging: "[Why would Singaporeans] rather live as Labrador Retrievers and not human beings? Why do they accept a life where they have to live no better than slaves, where they have no rights and completely at the mercy of a dictator?" True political discourse - and convincing arguments - sound more like this: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/antifed/main.htm http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/antifed/main.htm The thing is, I've read two pages of the stuff, and it's mostly name calling with a few names from history thrown in. Where is the reliable, third party evidence of so called human rights infringements? Plenty has been written on Abu Ghraib, for example, or Assad's use of chemical weapons. That's what I want to see - independent, solid evidence of human rights infringements and unfairness of courts. I've been pointed to plenty of independent blogs but never saw evidence of the widespread human rights abuses that Singapore is apparently committing. At worst, people dig up incidents from the creation of the country decades ago - where, should I remind you, LKY was actively fighting Maoist Chinese attempts at taking over the country by agents corrupting the political process! I've lived and worked in countries where citizen truly are "labradors" with "no rights" and "at the mercy of a dictator". They looked nothing like Singapore. On the other hand, I've lived in countries where parties like the "Workers Party" have strongly influenced politics, and a few decades later, you get ghettos, no law zones, a crumbling economy, high unemployment and so on. In the case of emerging markets, they result in countries with zero or negative growth rates, GDP per capita a fiftieth of Singapore's, and widespread monopolies somehow connected to the government. I just don't see it here. More evidence? (I'm going to be slow on this thread since it appears HN is now rate limiting me. It's a pleasure to have a conversation, nevertheless - thanks for participating.)
      - dang 12y ago
        > it appears HN is now rate limiting me New accounts are rate limited because of past abuses. We marked your account legit to turn that off.
  - lazylizard 12y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh
    - frenchieinsg 12y ago
      This is where I will venture outside purely presenting ideas, and into the personal. I wish the French government had done this with the Soviet agents that shaped the direction of government post WWII (indeed, many resistants were communists and wanted to free France not for independence but to allow it to join the Internationale - Bigeard recalls De Gaulle ordering him to Toulouse to replace one such dangerous new leader). Mitterrand was the peak, but the country's economy (and social structure) was effectively wiped out by successive socialist administrations and even today, around 4% of the population votes communist and it is dangerous and will get you socially ostracized to hold libertarian or even mildly classically liberal views in public (such as considering the minimum wage, or public education, to be negatives). We recently made headlines by proposing 75% income tax for the highest tax band, similar to Britain's 98% capital gains tax in the period just prior to Thatcher. LKY observed all this in Europe and learnt and applied the lessons accordingly in his own country. As far as I am concerned, they are internal enemies and I wish we had had a Lee Kuan Yew, or at least the willingness to accept that some ideologies are dangerous to prosperity and individual rights. The mob will, however, always vote away their freedom if led down the right salience tunnel. I recognize that I might be in the minority with these thoughts.
crdoconnor 12y ago
It's pretty heavenly if you come here as a caucasian with lots of money (which sivers did), or a caucasian working for a multinational on an expat package. If you're not one of those, there are some significant disadvantages, but still maybe enough significant advantages for it to be a nice place to live.
- _delirium 12y ago
  Even for wealthy expats, the military obligations that their kids would have are something I would personally feel uncomfortable with. First-generation immigrants are typically exempt, but as far as I understand it, their kids would typically have to serve ~2 years, at least if they have PR status. Independent of the service itself, there are also some restrictions around male children's travel rights (for fear of them moving abroad before serving), which can interfere with things like visiting family or taking family vacations during a son's teenage years (from age 16, as I understand it). For me the idea that I could have a son "stuck" in Singapore unable to leave for something like 4 years total, even to visit his grandparents, is uncomfortable, and something I wouldn't want to impose on a kid (given, naturally, that I have other options), even if Singapore otherwise seemed a perfect fit for me.
  - notthetup 12y ago
    That is only applicable if you take up PR (Permanent Residence) in Singapore. Hence many expats stay here on Employment Pass which has no such obligations.
  - beagle3 12y ago
    For what it's worth: Israel has a 3 year (boys, 2 year for girls) mandatory army service for permanent residents and citizens; I don't know how the Singaporean regime compares, but it is generally possible for an Israeli soldier to take a "leave of absence" to visit family during said mandatory service. If their parents are not permanent residents, they actually get help with the airfare and other stuff. From talking to Israelis and Germans (former still has mandatory service, latter used to have) - it's a part of the culture that isn't as intimidating as it sounds to outsiders. In fact, in Israel it is (or at least was) called "the fusion plant", and looked at as the great equalizer the binds rich and poor equally into society - and avoiding it for a long time had a social stigma with dire consequences. Mileage May Vary.
keypusher 12y ago
I lived in Singapore for 5 years, and I still think it's a great place as long as you understand and follow the rules.
- Redoubts 12y ago
  Are there any major rules you think are counter-intuitive or non-obvious there?
  - lazylizard 12y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OB_marker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OB_marker
negamax 12y ago
You really have to visit the place and live there. Don't take either Sivers' words or this article. That place has won against all odds. They must have done and doing something right. Right?
- contingencies 12y ago
  Yeah, they came to power on a platform of communism, switched viciously to totalitarianism while befriending both Burmese junta / drug lords and engineering a stockmarket perfectly designed to hide their ill-gotten gains. Simultaneously they befriended the west and the US in particular and we all know how much the US really cares about the human rights records of its utility-allies in various global regions... http://thalassiana.blogspot.com/2011/02/list-of-dictators-supported-by-united.html http://thalassiana.blogspot.com/2011/02/list-of-dictators-su...
  - negamax 12y ago
    Lol! At the same time having highest HDI, highest per capita income (well a massive increase), increase in health and education for the population. If that's what dictatorships can do then I conquer them to be better than democracy.
    - contingencies 12y ago
      ... and here we have a prime example of the wholly considered view of the typical Singaporean: an obedient slave to blinkered convenience and national back-slapping, underpinned with an unspoken but heavily ingrained and readily observed racism against people from other countries (Bangladesh, India to some extent, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, even mainland China), and no respect or value for fundamental human rights: There are no such people so hopelessly enslaved as those who believe they are free - LAH!
      - negamax 12y ago
        I am from India. You are way to ignorant and prejudiced to see anything.
rodgerd 12y ago
Conversations about Singapore in the Anglosphere have always been more about projection than the reality of Signapore. It's fairly common to laud Singapore as a kind of libertarian paradise, for example, while gliding over the government's heavy control over land use, for example.
slurry 12y ago
I guess I'm showing my age and/or wrestling fandom here, but you guys don't think of caning when you think of Singapore? I've always thought "Oh, Singapore," next thought: "where they cane people."

by sytelus 12y ago

ghshephard 12y ago

I've been here for a year - it's pretty damn nice country as long as you follow the rules.

psykotic 12y ago

There's been so much negative exposure of Singapore's human rights record that I'm surprised this revelation is what makes you flip the bit. It's completely in line with policies the PAP has been implementing since independence.

frenchieinsg 12y ago
I'd love to hear some examples, particularly recent. I was personally impressed by how light handed the country was with its enemies; for example, communist agitators and Chinese agents were merely exiled from the country (and in some cases later allowed back in), rather than jailed or executed as is more common in the region and in other "right wing" flavored governments.
- toni 12y ago
  I think you should regularly read "Singapore Dissident"[1] a blog written by a Singaporean lawyer who is at the moment a political refugee in US. [1] http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/ http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/
  - frenchieinsg 12y ago
    Wording like that is not encouraging: "[Why would Singaporeans] rather live as Labrador Retrievers and not human beings? Why do they accept a life where they have to live no better than slaves, where they have no rights and completely at the mercy of a dictator?" True political discourse - and convincing arguments - sound more like this: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/antifed/main.htm http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/antifed/main.htm The thing is, I've read two pages of the stuff, and it's mostly name calling with a few names from history thrown in. Where is the reliable, third party evidence of so called human rights infringements? Plenty has been written on Abu Ghraib, for example, or Assad's use of chemical weapons. That's what I want to see - independent, solid evidence of human rights infringements and unfairness of courts. I've been pointed to plenty of independent blogs but never saw evidence of the widespread human rights abuses that Singapore is apparently committing. At worst, people dig up incidents from the creation of the country decades ago - where, should I remind you, LKY was actively fighting Maoist Chinese attempts at taking over the country by agents corrupting the political process! I've lived and worked in countries where citizen truly are "labradors" with "no rights" and "at the mercy of a dictator". They looked nothing like Singapore. On the other hand, I've lived in countries where parties like the "Workers Party" have strongly influenced politics, and a few decades later, you get ghettos, no law zones, a crumbling economy, high unemployment and so on. In the case of emerging markets, they result in countries with zero or negative growth rates, GDP per capita a fiftieth of Singapore's, and widespread monopolies somehow connected to the government. I just don't see it here. More evidence? (I'm going to be slow on this thread since it appears HN is now rate limiting me. It's a pleasure to have a conversation, nevertheless - thanks for participating.)
    - dang 12y ago
      > it appears HN is now rate limiting me New accounts are rate limited because of past abuses. We marked your account legit to turn that off.
- lazylizard 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh
  - frenchieinsg 12y ago
    This is where I will venture outside purely presenting ideas, and into the personal. I wish the French government had done this with the Soviet agents that shaped the direction of government post WWII (indeed, many resistants were communists and wanted to free France not for independence but to allow it to join the Internationale - Bigeard recalls De Gaulle ordering him to Toulouse to replace one such dangerous new leader). Mitterrand was the peak, but the country's economy (and social structure) was effectively wiped out by successive socialist administrations and even today, around 4% of the population votes communist and it is dangerous and will get you socially ostracized to hold libertarian or even mildly classically liberal views in public (such as considering the minimum wage, or public education, to be negatives). We recently made headlines by proposing 75% income tax for the highest tax band, similar to Britain's 98% capital gains tax in the period just prior to Thatcher. LKY observed all this in Europe and learnt and applied the lessons accordingly in his own country. As far as I am concerned, they are internal enemies and I wish we had had a Lee Kuan Yew, or at least the willingness to accept that some ideologies are dangerous to prosperity and individual rights. The mob will, however, always vote away their freedom if led down the right salience tunnel. I recognize that I might be in the minority with these thoughts.

crdoconnor 12y ago

It's pretty heavenly if you come here as a caucasian with lots of money (which sivers did), or a caucasian working for a multinational on an expat package. If you're not one of those, there are some significant disadvantages, but still maybe enough significant advantages for it to be a nice place to live.

_delirium 12y ago
Even for wealthy expats, the military obligations that their kids would have are something I would personally feel uncomfortable with. First-generation immigrants are typically exempt, but as far as I understand it, their kids would typically have to serve ~2 years, at least if they have PR status. Independent of the service itself, there are also some restrictions around male children's travel rights (for fear of them moving abroad before serving), which can interfere with things like visiting family or taking family vacations during a son's teenage years (from age 16, as I understand it). For me the idea that I could have a son "stuck" in Singapore unable to leave for something like 4 years total, even to visit his grandparents, is uncomfortable, and something I wouldn't want to impose on a kid (given, naturally, that I have other options), even if Singapore otherwise seemed a perfect fit for me.
- notthetup 12y ago
  That is only applicable if you take up PR (Permanent Residence) in Singapore. Hence many expats stay here on Employment Pass which has no such obligations.
- beagle3 12y ago
  For what it's worth: Israel has a 3 year (boys, 2 year for girls) mandatory army service for permanent residents and citizens; I don't know how the Singaporean regime compares, but it is generally possible for an Israeli soldier to take a "leave of absence" to visit family during said mandatory service. If their parents are not permanent residents, they actually get help with the airfare and other stuff. From talking to Israelis and Germans (former still has mandatory service, latter used to have) - it's a part of the culture that isn't as intimidating as it sounds to outsiders. In fact, in Israel it is (or at least was) called "the fusion plant", and looked at as the great equalizer the binds rich and poor equally into society - and avoiding it for a long time had a social stigma with dire consequences. Mileage May Vary.

keypusher 12y ago

I lived in Singapore for 5 years, and I still think it's a great place as long as you understand and follow the rules.

Redoubts 12y ago
Are there any major rules you think are counter-intuitive or non-obvious there?
- lazylizard 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OB_marker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OB_marker

negamax 12y ago

You really have to visit the place and live there. Don't take either Sivers' words or this article. That place has won against all odds. They must have done and doing something right. Right?

contingencies 12y ago
Yeah, they came to power on a platform of communism, switched viciously to totalitarianism while befriending both Burmese junta / drug lords and engineering a stockmarket perfectly designed to hide their ill-gotten gains. Simultaneously they befriended the west and the US in particular and we all know how much the US really cares about the human rights records of its utility-allies in various global regions... http://thalassiana.blogspot.com/2011/02/list-of-dictators-supported-by-united.html http://thalassiana.blogspot.com/2011/02/list-of-dictators-su...
- negamax 12y ago
  Lol! At the same time having highest HDI, highest per capita income (well a massive increase), increase in health and education for the population. If that's what dictatorships can do then I conquer them to be better than democracy.
  - contingencies 12y ago
    ... and here we have a prime example of the wholly considered view of the typical Singaporean: an obedient slave to blinkered convenience and national back-slapping, underpinned with an unspoken but heavily ingrained and readily observed racism against people from other countries (Bangladesh, India to some extent, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, even mainland China), and no respect or value for fundamental human rights: There are no such people so hopelessly enslaved as those who believe they are free - LAH!
    - negamax 12y ago
      I am from India. You are way to ignorant and prejudiced to see anything.

rodgerd 12y ago

Conversations about Singapore in the Anglosphere have always been more about projection than the reality of Signapore. It's fairly common to laud Singapore as a kind of libertarian paradise, for example, while gliding over the government's heavy control over land use, for example.

slurry 12y ago

I guess I'm showing my age and/or wrestling fandom here, but you guys don't think of caning when you think of Singapore? I've always thought "Oh, Singapore," next thought: "where they cane people."