3 ms·

If I were designing secure SCADA protocols, the first thing I'd think of is the ways in which we communicate with submarines. Are any of those protocols public

If I were designing secure SCADA protocols, the first thing I'd think of is the ways in which we communicate with submarines. Are any of those protocols public?

dsl 12y ago
Submarines communicate using extremely low frequency radio transmissions to penetrate water. They have a bandwidth of 2-3 characters per minute, so the messages are almost exclusively orders to surface and switch to standard satellite based communications. Oh, and the transmitter requires a very unique piece of land with low ground potential that only exists in a dozen or so places worldwide. Completely impractical for SCADA systems. :)
- stevenrace 12y ago
  I'm really interested in learning more about underwater ULF - can you point to any keywords, papers, or milspec prefixes to read up on? I've explored all the ISM bands - I just want to play with something even slower/longer range whilst sailing (in international waters, of course :)).
  - jmah 12y ago
    There a little here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines and interesting detail here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sanguine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sanguine
    - stevenrace 12y ago
      Thanks guys. I was familiar with Project Sanguine, but had hoped there were less ambitious public projects I had overlooked (perhaps closer to VLF which operates <30m seawater depths). After reading about the Navy E-6B aircraft, which trails a 5km antenna behind it to communicate with subs, I had presumed modern 'submarine -> other underwater radios' were akin to large commercial fishing trawling nets - or the really long antennas were packed into hilbert curves and epoxied to the hulls or something. Anyhow, it seems 'acoustic modems' using 'CSMA' [1] are the norm for commercial underwater ROVs (such as James Gosling's 'wavegliders' [2]). [1] http://www.mit.edu/~millitsa/resources/pdfs/royal.pdf http://www.mit.edu/~millitsa/resources/pdfs/royal.pdf [2] http://liquidr.com/prodserv/wg/gateway.html http://liquidr.com/prodserv/wg/gateway.html
  - dsl 12y ago
    jmah's Wikipedia links are a good start. But be warned, water penetrating ULF is outside the scope of hobbyists and even most small governments.

If I were designing secure SCADA protocols, the first thing I'd think of is the ways in which we communicate with submarines. Are any of those protocols public?

dsl 12y ago

Submarines communicate using extremely low frequency radio transmissions to penetrate water. They have a bandwidth of 2-3 characters per minute, so the messages are almost exclusively orders to surface and switch to standard satellite based communications. Oh, and the transmitter requires a very unique piece of land with low ground potential that only exists in a dozen or so places worldwide. Completely impractical for SCADA systems. :)

stevenrace 12y ago
I'm really interested in learning more about underwater ULF - can you point to any keywords, papers, or milspec prefixes to read up on? I've explored all the ISM bands - I just want to play with something even slower/longer range whilst sailing (in international waters, of course :)).
- jmah 12y ago
  There a little here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines and interesting detail here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sanguine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sanguine
  - stevenrace 12y ago
    Thanks guys. I was familiar with Project Sanguine, but had hoped there were less ambitious public projects I had overlooked (perhaps closer to VLF which operates <30m seawater depths). After reading about the Navy E-6B aircraft, which trails a 5km antenna behind it to communicate with subs, I had presumed modern 'submarine -> other underwater radios' were akin to large commercial fishing trawling nets - or the really long antennas were packed into hilbert curves and epoxied to the hulls or something. Anyhow, it seems 'acoustic modems' using 'CSMA' [1] are the norm for commercial underwater ROVs (such as James Gosling's 'wavegliders' [2]). [1] http://www.mit.edu/~millitsa/resources/pdfs/royal.pdf http://www.mit.edu/~millitsa/resources/pdfs/royal.pdf [2] http://liquidr.com/prodserv/wg/gateway.html http://liquidr.com/prodserv/wg/gateway.html
- dsl 12y ago
  jmah's Wikipedia links are a good start. But be warned, water penetrating ULF is outside the scope of hobbyists and even most small governments.