9 ms·

The Great Colorado Weed Experiment

90 points by isaacdl 12y ago

omegaworks 12y ago
Finally, a positive example of states rights that rational people can argue for.
- opendais 12y ago
  I think the problem is the people who shout about state's rights are easily linked to racist loons. The rational ones think things like alcohol, marijuana, etc should be state-level issues. :P The Federal Government shouldn't regulate any good or service that doesn't cross state borders.
  - parfe 12y ago
    >The Federal Government shouldn't regulate any good or service that doesn't cross state borders. Black people truly prosper when excluded from the local economy. Makes them feel like Real Mercans. Wait, no! That other thing.
    - opendais 12y ago
      Do you understand the difference between deciding if people can smoke weed and discrimination? :/ I'm talking about whether or not the sale of a good or service is legal. An example of a service that is legal in some places and not others would be prostitution if you want an example. There is a huge fucking difference between "Colorado can sell weed" and "Colorado can discriminate against people of color". You seem very, very confused on the difference between "people" and "a category of goods". Shall I call you are a racist for equating black people with goods and services then?
at-fates-hands 12y ago
Just to play devils advocate here: It sounds great, except for the fact there's a kind of product gentrification going on. http://www.thecannabist.co/2014/07/30/colorado-marijuana-black-market-pot-illegal-marijuana-growing/17245/ http://www.thecannabist.co/2014/07/30/colorado-marijuana-bla... "In this light, taxation is seen as a blunt instrument of exclusion, driving precisely the groups most prosecuted in the war on drug further into the arms of the black market where they remain at risk for arrest or robbery. In one Denver dispensary, a $30 purchase of one-eighth of the Trinity strain of cannabis includes $7.38 in state and local taxes — a near 33 percent rate. As Larisa Bolivar, one of the city’s most well-known proponents of decriminalizing marijuana nationally and opening a true free market, puts it: That seven bucks buys someone lunch. “It’s simple,” she says. “A high tax rate drives black market growth. It’s an incentive for risky behavior.”"
- fossuser 12y ago
  Cigarettes are highly taxed and there doesn't seem too be much of a black market for them. Edit: Looks like I was wrong, but the black market is buying legal cigarettes and driving them across state lines which is a bit different from growing your own tobacco.
  - tvanantwerp 12y ago
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/03/20/how-state-taxes-promote-an-underground-cigarette-market/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/03/20/ho...
  - gyardley 12y ago
    Probably because there's no nearby place to get untaxed cigarettes, and there's not enough profit in growing tobacco and making cigarettes from scratch. When I was in high school, back in the early '90s, the difference in taxes on cigarettes between Ontario and New York was a few dollars a pack - enough to cause a huge black market in smuggled cross-border cigarettes. I didn't buy a legal pack in four years. Now, amusingly, taxes in New York have been raised so much that they're the target of smugglers. (And in Ontario, the Indian reservations that used to do all the smuggling got into the direct manufacturing business, since they can sell on the reservation tax-free.)
  - jamesbritt 12y ago
    There certainly is a black market for cigarettes. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/06/25/why-the-massive-black-market-trade-in-cigarettes-affects-you-even-if-you-dont-smoke/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/06/25/w...
  - sk5t 12y ago
    There is a black market for cigarettes (to skirt local and state taxes) but I doubt it leads to any significant risk for end-users.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    http://nypost.com/2014/08/02/cop-who-used-deadly-chokehold-should-be-charged-sharpton/ http://nypost.com/2014/08/02/cop-who-used-deadly-chokehold-s... Loosie seller killed by NYPD.
jwatte 12y ago
We might think that smoking can be bad for individuals, and decriminalization is good for society at the same time. However, a seven month time period is not enough to read the experiment on many the variables claimed in the article (blight, drop outs, etc.)
- Troubadr 12y ago
  An interesting opinion you have there. However, based on years of legal alcohol use by the public, I'd disagree. Besides the health and freedom issues, your opinion sounds like it's biased.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    What "opinion"? All he said was that the data isn't in yet.
    - pstuart 12y ago
      Data on legalization vs. data on the effects of cannabis consumption? Or the data on the effect of criminalizing cannabis consumption? Because you don't need to be a scientist to know that the current laws are flawed through and through and that the only good thing about them is that if you own a private prison you're going to make a lot of money.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        I don't understand this comment at all. The grandparent comment didn't take a position on any of the issues you mention, and the only hypothetical position it mentioned that's germane to your comment agrees with your comment.
        pstuart 12y ago
        "the data isn't in yet" What data?
MarkMc 12y ago
Since cannabis is on the path to full legalization, should we also legalize LSD, Ecstasy and Mushrooms for the same reasons? Particularly since they cause less harm than cannabis: http://m.imgur.com/Pz1NIEQ http://m.imgur.com/Pz1NIEQ Source: http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf
- GuiA 12y ago
  Yes. There is no rational argument against it, only FUD.
  - frozenport 12y ago
    >> no rational argument against it People getting injured? Reoccurring flashbacks?
    - aberzombie 12y ago
      Study citation needed, or this is the very definition of FUD.
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      People getting injured is a good argument against horseback riding, and climbing mount everest - but neither of those activities is illegal. Shouldn't individuals be allowed to make informed choices regarding their activity, particularly if it does not harm those around them? Driving a car is dangerous, and it kills many innocent people who aren't driving - but we haven't mandated mass transit because we believe in the freedom to move.
      - frozenport 12y ago
        Consider guns or even certain fireworks. There are things that are dangerous that can be done by the foolish, the laws for regulating these are well motivated.
        12y ago

90 points by isaacdl 12y ago

omegaworks 12y ago

Finally, a positive example of states rights that rational people can argue for.

opendais 12y ago
I think the problem is the people who shout about state's rights are easily linked to racist loons. The rational ones think things like alcohol, marijuana, etc should be state-level issues. :P The Federal Government shouldn't regulate any good or service that doesn't cross state borders.
- parfe 12y ago
  >The Federal Government shouldn't regulate any good or service that doesn't cross state borders. Black people truly prosper when excluded from the local economy. Makes them feel like Real Mercans. Wait, no! That other thing.
  - opendais 12y ago
    Do you understand the difference between deciding if people can smoke weed and discrimination? :/ I'm talking about whether or not the sale of a good or service is legal. An example of a service that is legal in some places and not others would be prostitution if you want an example. There is a huge fucking difference between "Colorado can sell weed" and "Colorado can discriminate against people of color". You seem very, very confused on the difference between "people" and "a category of goods". Shall I call you are a racist for equating black people with goods and services then?

at-fates-hands 12y ago

Just to play devils advocate here: It sounds great, except for the fact there's a kind of product gentrification going on. http://www.thecannabist.co/2014/07/30/colorado-marijuana-black-market-pot-illegal-marijuana-growing/17245/ http://www.thecannabist.co/2014/07/30/colorado-marijuana-bla... "In this light, taxation is seen as a blunt instrument of exclusion, driving precisely the groups most prosecuted in the war on drug further into the arms of the black market where they remain at risk for arrest or robbery. In one Denver dispensary, a $30 purchase of one-eighth of the Trinity strain of cannabis includes $7.38 in state and local taxes — a near 33 percent rate. As Larisa Bolivar, one of the city’s most well-known proponents of decriminalizing marijuana nationally and opening a true free market, puts it: That seven bucks buys someone lunch. “It’s simple,” she says. “A high tax rate drives black market growth. It’s an incentive for risky behavior.”"

fossuser 12y ago
Cigarettes are highly taxed and there doesn't seem too be much of a black market for them. Edit: Looks like I was wrong, but the black market is buying legal cigarettes and driving them across state lines which is a bit different from growing your own tobacco.
- tvanantwerp 12y ago
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/03/20/how-state-taxes-promote-an-underground-cigarette-market/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/03/20/ho...
- gyardley 12y ago
  Probably because there's no nearby place to get untaxed cigarettes, and there's not enough profit in growing tobacco and making cigarettes from scratch. When I was in high school, back in the early '90s, the difference in taxes on cigarettes between Ontario and New York was a few dollars a pack - enough to cause a huge black market in smuggled cross-border cigarettes. I didn't buy a legal pack in four years. Now, amusingly, taxes in New York have been raised so much that they're the target of smugglers. (And in Ontario, the Indian reservations that used to do all the smuggling got into the direct manufacturing business, since they can sell on the reservation tax-free.)
- jamesbritt 12y ago
  There certainly is a black market for cigarettes. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/06/25/why-the-massive-black-market-trade-in-cigarettes-affects-you-even-if-you-dont-smoke/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/06/25/w...
- sk5t 12y ago
  There is a black market for cigarettes (to skirt local and state taxes) but I doubt it leads to any significant risk for end-users.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  http://nypost.com/2014/08/02/cop-who-used-deadly-chokehold-should-be-charged-sharpton/ http://nypost.com/2014/08/02/cop-who-used-deadly-chokehold-s... Loosie seller killed by NYPD.

jwatte 12y ago

We might think that smoking can be bad for individuals, and decriminalization is good for society at the same time. However, a seven month time period is not enough to read the experiment on many the variables claimed in the article (blight, drop outs, etc.)

Troubadr 12y ago
An interesting opinion you have there. However, based on years of legal alcohol use by the public, I'd disagree. Besides the health and freedom issues, your opinion sounds like it's biased.
- tptacek 12y ago
  What "opinion"? All he said was that the data isn't in yet.
  - pstuart 12y ago
    Data on legalization vs. data on the effects of cannabis consumption? Or the data on the effect of criminalizing cannabis consumption? Because you don't need to be a scientist to know that the current laws are flawed through and through and that the only good thing about them is that if you own a private prison you're going to make a lot of money.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      I don't understand this comment at all. The grandparent comment didn't take a position on any of the issues you mention, and the only hypothetical position it mentioned that's germane to your comment agrees with your comment.
      - pstuart 12y ago
        "the data isn't in yet" What data?

MarkMc 12y ago

Since cannabis is on the path to full legalization, should we also legalize LSD, Ecstasy and Mushrooms for the same reasons? Particularly since they cause less harm than cannabis: http://m.imgur.com/Pz1NIEQ http://m.imgur.com/Pz1NIEQ Source: http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf http://www.sg.unimaas.nl/_OLD/oudelezingen/dddsd.pdf

GuiA 12y ago
Yes. There is no rational argument against it, only FUD.
- frozenport 12y ago
  >> no rational argument against it People getting injured? Reoccurring flashbacks?
  - aberzombie 12y ago
    Study citation needed, or this is the very definition of FUD.
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    People getting injured is a good argument against horseback riding, and climbing mount everest - but neither of those activities is illegal. Shouldn't individuals be allowed to make informed choices regarding their activity, particularly if it does not harm those around them? Driving a car is dangerous, and it kills many innocent people who aren't driving - but we haven't mandated mass transit because we believe in the freedom to move.
    - frozenport 12y ago
      Consider guns or even certain fireworks. There are things that are dangerous that can be done by the foolish, the laws for regulating these are well motivated.
      - 12y ago