6 ms·

I'm saddened by the naïveté (or perhaps it's simple incompetence) of the smart meter manufacturers. Why isn't all communication encrypted? Why doesn't each mete

I'm saddened by the naïveté (or perhaps it's simple incompetence) of the smart meter manufacturers. Why isn't all communication encrypted? Why doesn't each meter have a unique public/private key pair associated with it? That way even if a key was extracted from a meter, it wouldn't be possible to use that key to access any other meter. It's not like there's a shortage of 1024-bit primes. Each meter in the world can have a unique 2048-bit key. Maybe this isn't important for initial deployment. Maybe each meter is simply read-only. But, eventually, I think utilities want to be able to signal to the meter and associated devices in the house when to turn on and turn off. E.g. temporarily shut off air conditioning during a demand peak. I don't want some random hacker in another continent communicating with my meter, either for malice or for lulz. Anyway, that's just my simple view on how things should be done. Obviously the real world isn't nearly as paranoid.

kaoD 12y ago
That sounds exactly like http://telehash.org/ http://telehash.org/ !
- kaoD 12y ago
  I'm completely puzzled about these downvotes. The first paragraph I was replying to is definitely a job for Telehash, and I was genuinely excited about the applicability of the technology.
_delirium 12y ago
But, eventually, I think utilities want to be able to signal to the meter and associated devices in the house when to turn on and turn off. E.g. temporarily shut off air conditioning during a demand peak. This already exists in a number of regions: https://www.clearlyenergy.com/residential-demand-response-programs https://www.clearlyenergy.com/residential-demand-response-pr... I have no idea what protocols they use, though.
- nmjohn 12y ago
  I have this in my home. I don't think it's been used at all this year, but last summer it was on multiple occasions. How it works (in my area at least) copied from your linked site. Essentially, radio signal. > If the demand for electricity escalates to a critical point, a "system emergency" or "peak alert" is announced, and Alliant willl turn on the radio signal that activates the switch on your air conditioner. The receiver will be activated to cycle the outdoor cooling unit according to the program option you elected.
  - ams6110 12y ago
    Yeah we have one and I assumed it was activated by signaling on the power lines themselves, because it's not connected anything else.
    - _delirium 12y ago
      I've seen one (in Austin) that uses internet-connected thermostats: http://austinenergy.com/wps/portal/psp/residential/offerings/cooling-and-heating/power-partner-thermostats/ http://austinenergy.com/wps/portal/psp/residential/offerings...
- userbinator 12y ago
  I think if this is really not noticeable, then people are setting their AC to run far more than necessary to maintain the right temperature... But to let them control the temperature of your house, that seems rather Orweillian.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    I'm starting to wish Orwell had never written anything, given how often people name-drop him in, apparently, every single conversation about trying to run or build a more efficient society. How, how is it Orwellian? Is the power company determining whether you can have air conditioning based on your party loyalty and commitment in the 5 minutes hate? Or maybe, and I know this will sound crazy to the most vocal HN people on this, it's a line item on your bill which lets you have a lower rate in exchange for allowing load management on a large, dumb energy hungry appliance?
jgamman 12y ago
as far as i can tell the ability to manage financial risk of non-payment is the business driver for smart meters despite the rhetoric of 'smart'. electricity companies hate the fact that you consume energy and then get billed in arrears since obviously some people can't/won't pay. smart meters let you move instantly to a pre-pay plan where the risk moves from the provider to the user... it's also a more graceful method of cutting people off - you can just transition to a pre-pay method with a fixed credit limit so that it's clear what is going to happen when you get to zero - this is useful if there are follow-on liabilities ie, people depend on power if they have medical needs etc
- switch007 12y ago
  Exactly. Also, every energy company I've dealt with in the UK does their very best to ensure you're always in credit. They "predict" your usage wildly inaccurately (even if you give monthly readings and they have years of your historical usage to analyse) and adjust your monthly direct debit how they see fit.
- enjo 12y ago
  From my experience (I work in this industry) the biggest driver is definitely billing, but not quite what you picked out. What providers really want is to move to tiered and time-of-use pricing across the entire grid. Most utilities already do this with the various commercial tariffs, but that only accounts for about 40% of the total grid. All of us, in the near future, will be paying rates that vary by how much we use AND (more critically) WHEN we use it. It's not really something to fear, for a lot of people this is going to mean lower utility bills in general. For the folks running swimming pools and the like, things are probably going to get a bit more expensive. This is a great place for startups, btw. There are a lot of interesting opportunities around helping people make sense of the changing landscape surrounding utility billing.
flux_w42 12y ago
There is a standard for smart meters called DLMS [1]. It's the most used protocol for smart meters for a while now. The protocol supports two way authentication and uses AES-GCM. Providing a secure medium for meter communication is in the interest of both the user and the power companies: Users are protected from malicious commands to the meter (using the breaker to disconnect your power, changing the used tariff, ...) and power suppliers prevent fraud. [1] http://www.dlms.com/ http://www.dlms.com/
- tptacek 12y ago
  What smart meter brands (and in which models) actually support this protocol? I haven't seen it running anywhere. Is this more common outside the US?
  - flux_w42 12y ago
    It's mainly used in Europe. The US has a very similar, but older protocol called ANSI C12. The C12.22 spec includes authenticated encryption, but I'm not familiar with the details.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      C12.22 is DES-CBC with CRC-16 used as integrity checks. :)
      - flux_w42 12y ago
        Ouch, thats bad :) C12.22 is pretty old, AES didn't even exist yet. It seems that it got an update recently (2011) with the smart grid and smart metering use case in mind. The are now using an EAX called EAX prime [1] put it seems to have it's own issues [2]. [1] http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/proposedmodes/eax-prime/eax-prime-spec.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/propose... [2] http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/018.pdf http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/018.pdf
tptacek 12y ago
Smart meters are deployed in massive numbers and maintenance/upkeep of flaky units is an intractable problem. They are BOM-constrained products. So they tend to use dirt-simple bulletproof embedded processors; mostly, MSP430. So provisioning "2048 bit keys" (more realistically/reasonably: aggressively small ECC keys) is not as simple as pulling them out of the air and assigning them. On top of that, and for the same reasons I mentioned above, smart meters tend to communicate over very simple RF protocols. There isn't a lot of headroom in those protocols for large moduli or, for that matter, for many round-trips. I'm not arguing that these systems should be more secure. They obviously should be. I'm disputing that securing them is an easy problem. It is not. Later (There are better smart meters, as someone mentioned downthread. But remember also that it is very, very difficult to get cryptography right. It has essentially never been done in the first major deployment of any system.)
- jerryr 12y ago
  Agreed! Securing stuff is NOT an easy problem--especially cost constrained, embedded goods. Having worked on multiple connected device projects now (including Square's first encrypted reader--but that was one of the more rigorous efforts I've seen), I'd say there's not much communication in our industry & everyone seems to roll their own security. It's disastrous & I'm not certain what the solution is. Only companies with obvious liability issues seem to bother with security consultants such as Matasano. The rest wing it with reference designs and code scraped from dubious places. So, when articles like this surface, I'm fascinated, but not surprised. BTW, this problem is only going to get worse with the IoT boom. I have nothing but respect for what you do, Thomas. I wish everyone I've worked with had access to your services. Could you maybe help TI wrap it all up into a hardware block in the next generation of MSP430s? :)

kaoD 12y ago

That sounds exactly like http://telehash.org/ http://telehash.org/ !

kaoD 12y ago
I'm completely puzzled about these downvotes. The first paragraph I was replying to is definitely a job for Telehash, and I was genuinely excited about the applicability of the technology.

_delirium 12y ago

But, eventually, I think utilities want to be able to signal to the meter and associated devices in the house when to turn on and turn off. E.g. temporarily shut off air conditioning during a demand peak. This already exists in a number of regions: https://www.clearlyenergy.com/residential-demand-response-programs https://www.clearlyenergy.com/residential-demand-response-pr... I have no idea what protocols they use, though.

nmjohn 12y ago
I have this in my home. I don't think it's been used at all this year, but last summer it was on multiple occasions. How it works (in my area at least) copied from your linked site. Essentially, radio signal. > If the demand for electricity escalates to a critical point, a "system emergency" or "peak alert" is announced, and Alliant willl turn on the radio signal that activates the switch on your air conditioner. The receiver will be activated to cycle the outdoor cooling unit according to the program option you elected.
- ams6110 12y ago
  Yeah we have one and I assumed it was activated by signaling on the power lines themselves, because it's not connected anything else.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    I've seen one (in Austin) that uses internet-connected thermostats: http://austinenergy.com/wps/portal/psp/residential/offerings/cooling-and-heating/power-partner-thermostats/ http://austinenergy.com/wps/portal/psp/residential/offerings...
userbinator 12y ago
I think if this is really not noticeable, then people are setting their AC to run far more than necessary to maintain the right temperature... But to let them control the temperature of your house, that seems rather Orweillian.
- XorNot 12y ago
  I'm starting to wish Orwell had never written anything, given how often people name-drop him in, apparently, every single conversation about trying to run or build a more efficient society. How, how is it Orwellian? Is the power company determining whether you can have air conditioning based on your party loyalty and commitment in the 5 minutes hate? Or maybe, and I know this will sound crazy to the most vocal HN people on this, it's a line item on your bill which lets you have a lower rate in exchange for allowing load management on a large, dumb energy hungry appliance?

jgamman 12y ago

as far as i can tell the ability to manage financial risk of non-payment is the business driver for smart meters despite the rhetoric of 'smart'. electricity companies hate the fact that you consume energy and then get billed in arrears since obviously some people can't/won't pay. smart meters let you move instantly to a pre-pay plan where the risk moves from the provider to the user... it's also a more graceful method of cutting people off - you can just transition to a pre-pay method with a fixed credit limit so that it's clear what is going to happen when you get to zero - this is useful if there are follow-on liabilities ie, people depend on power if they have medical needs etc

switch007 12y ago
Exactly. Also, every energy company I've dealt with in the UK does their very best to ensure you're always in credit. They "predict" your usage wildly inaccurately (even if you give monthly readings and they have years of your historical usage to analyse) and adjust your monthly direct debit how they see fit.
enjo 12y ago
From my experience (I work in this industry) the biggest driver is definitely billing, but not quite what you picked out. What providers really want is to move to tiered and time-of-use pricing across the entire grid. Most utilities already do this with the various commercial tariffs, but that only accounts for about 40% of the total grid. All of us, in the near future, will be paying rates that vary by how much we use AND (more critically) WHEN we use it. It's not really something to fear, for a lot of people this is going to mean lower utility bills in general. For the folks running swimming pools and the like, things are probably going to get a bit more expensive. This is a great place for startups, btw. There are a lot of interesting opportunities around helping people make sense of the changing landscape surrounding utility billing.

flux_w42 12y ago

There is a standard for smart meters called DLMS [1]. It's the most used protocol for smart meters for a while now. The protocol supports two way authentication and uses AES-GCM. Providing a secure medium for meter communication is in the interest of both the user and the power companies: Users are protected from malicious commands to the meter (using the breaker to disconnect your power, changing the used tariff, ...) and power suppliers prevent fraud. [1] http://www.dlms.com/ http://www.dlms.com/

tptacek 12y ago
What smart meter brands (and in which models) actually support this protocol? I haven't seen it running anywhere. Is this more common outside the US?
- flux_w42 12y ago
  It's mainly used in Europe. The US has a very similar, but older protocol called ANSI C12. The C12.22 spec includes authenticated encryption, but I'm not familiar with the details.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    C12.22 is DES-CBC with CRC-16 used as integrity checks. :)
    - flux_w42 12y ago
      Ouch, thats bad :) C12.22 is pretty old, AES didn't even exist yet. It seems that it got an update recently (2011) with the smart grid and smart metering use case in mind. The are now using an EAX called EAX prime [1] put it seems to have it's own issues [2]. [1] http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/proposedmodes/eax-prime/eax-prime-spec.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/propose... [2] http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/018.pdf http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/018.pdf

tptacek 12y ago

Smart meters are deployed in massive numbers and maintenance/upkeep of flaky units is an intractable problem. They are BOM-constrained products. So they tend to use dirt-simple bulletproof embedded processors; mostly, MSP430. So provisioning "2048 bit keys" (more realistically/reasonably: aggressively small ECC keys) is not as simple as pulling them out of the air and assigning them. On top of that, and for the same reasons I mentioned above, smart meters tend to communicate over very simple RF protocols. There isn't a lot of headroom in those protocols for large moduli or, for that matter, for many round-trips. I'm not arguing that these systems should be more secure. They obviously should be. I'm disputing that securing them is an easy problem. It is not. Later (There are better smart meters, as someone mentioned downthread. But remember also that it is very, very difficult to get cryptography right. It has essentially never been done in the first major deployment of any system.)

jerryr 12y ago
Agreed! Securing stuff is NOT an easy problem--especially cost constrained, embedded goods. Having worked on multiple connected device projects now (including Square's first encrypted reader--but that was one of the more rigorous efforts I've seen), I'd say there's not much communication in our industry & everyone seems to roll their own security. It's disastrous & I'm not certain what the solution is. Only companies with obvious liability issues seem to bother with security consultants such as Matasano. The rest wing it with reference designs and code scraped from dubious places. So, when articles like this surface, I'm fascinated, but not surprised. BTW, this problem is only going to get worse with the IoT boom. I have nothing but respect for what you do, Thomas. I wish everyone I've worked with had access to your services. Could you maybe help TI wrap it all up into a hardware block in the next generation of MSP430s? :)