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In no case I see insult - I just still wonder - probably having English as by far not my first language leaves a lot to desire in the way I try to convince some
by plam3ns 12y ago
In no case I see insult - I just still wonder - probably having English as by far not my first language leaves a lot to desire in the way I try to convince someone to open a book before moaning "stupid".
"Well, I was forced to use Windows+LispWorks in college and I found myself (and my classmates) shouting "stupid LipsWorks!" at it more than we should have." - this is usually (at least in the context of LispWorks very unusual for years already (me personally have used it for about a decade in the last 14 years for production software) - I don't know in which decade you tried it, but at least in the 21-st century LispWorks has been pretty stable for the majority of it's users as far as I have heard, and some of them run trading platforms for example on it. Yes, the GUI has always been a weak point of the product, but to have a workflow as you describe points to errors outside of LispWorks - probably education, probably not having called a single time the support I have praised earlier etc. But the important part is not who would cry louder - you can gather the whole class and continue to shout "stupid LispWorks" - it's without value for all.
"If GP called it stupid he might have his own reasons to do so (even if he could've said it more politely). Dismissing his opinion because of how much effort someone has put into LW is not helpful." - Well - his opinion is uninformed, uneducated and probably insulting. He seems to be pretty young and more loud than knowledgable, so it has been a chance to help.
"The man hours of work mean nothing.." - Sure - it's just again unedecuated in that specific case.
"..because as a consumer I don't care how much work you've put into it, but only about the quality of the product.." - I really don't know how a bunch of undergraduates can for so long not listen to their professor or to not call support and to torture themselfes with notepad and still long after finishing that school still not reflect about their experience and the right actions to take in comparison to just moaning.
"...and still have which, based on my experience, is lacking..." - Sure, the GUI is and probably will be lacking in every Common Lisp implementation incl. LispWorks'. But if you have listened to your professor at that time, you would at least today know, that this has never been his main point of teaching with Common Lisp or that LispWorks is a tool for several companies running some important software without crashes. 10 years ago as well as today.
Whatever - the discussion/argumentation evolves to a kindergarden. My point, I repeat, has been to sensibilize the GP to some need for learning before categorizing the work of others as "stupid commercial". Either I can animate you or the GP to learn more or I can't. That's all. It's your life, not mine.
Cheers
- kaoD 12y agoSure, the only conclusion you've drawn from my comment is LispWorks is perfect and we're to blame because we were a bunch of uneducated undergraduates. Great attitude. Perhaps language is not the barrier here? > probably not having called a single time the support I have praised earlier etc. A great support does not change the fact that software was faulty. > his opinion is uninformed Because he doesn't agree with you?
- TheOtherHobbes 12y agoOddly enough, Overtone running in Clojure will give you a much interesting and creative musical experience than OM will. (In my opinion, anyway.)
- plam3ns 12y ago> Sure, the only conclusion you've drawn from my comment is LispWorks is perfect and we're to blame because we were a bunch of uneducated undergraduates. Great attitude. No - just reread what I have written. There are established ways to deal with problems in standards situations. If someone breaks a leg while walking on a street while hitting a stone, he can either moan about the quality of the product (the street) and don't take further action or at least to go to a doctor (the support in your case). While undergraduates may be uninformed about the administrative ways to deal with such problems, at least their professor should have taken such action especially when he recognizes that most of the LW users don't have the problem which he and his students experience. Just whining shows only attitude, but is no solution, and this is something we for sure both know. > A great support does not change the fact that software was faulty Well, we all know how to crash compilers and IDEs (even Clojure :), but this is not the point. If you or your professor have called the support, with very high probability you would have experienced the removal of that faultyness. Sometimes even writing to the user group of Common Lisp (comp.lang.lisp) or the more specific of the LispWorks often gives you solutions and more knowledge. > Because he doesn't agree with you? In no way. Only because it is a fact. Cheers
- kaoD 12y agoWould support have received, investigated, fixed the issue and uploaded fixed binaries before we finished our two-week assignment? Believe it or not our problems existed (professor included, happened during assignment reviews) but as new users we decided to just finish the assignment and move on. Subconsciously we felt it was a better return of investment for our time. User Experience 101: when new users of your product face problems, they don't contact support and just leave as soon as possible for an alternative. Support is there for people who already use the product and/or have no alternatives (which LispWorks has many).