7 ms·

See this, boys and girls? This is why people think IT folks are arrogant. > In my opinion all this stuff I do with hands is way easier than trying to come up w

See this, boys and girls? This is why people think IT folks are arrogant. > In my opinion all this stuff I do with hands is way easier than trying to come up with good thought through software/hardware/network system. > Why is that? Why becoming a plumber actually can be more profitable than trying to solve way harder problems? Your entire premise of this post seems to be "I can glue two PVC pipes together, therefore I can do what a plumber does!" So let's consider replacing a water heater, which you mention you can do. Did you get a permit to put it in? What did you do with the old heater? How much money did you spend on the tools to put it in? Are you super duper sure that you installed it properly and to code? And when you go to sell your house can you prove it, or are you just gonna hope the buyer's home inspector doesn't ask too many questions? And here's the big one: when you add up all money you spent getting the permits, the fees associated with taking the old one to the dump, the materials, etc. - be sure to also figure out how many hours you spent, multiply by your hourly rate, and subtract. Gluing two pipes together doesn't make you a plumber. Putting a band-aid on your finger doesn't make you a doctor. Banging up a website in Frontpage doesn't make you a programmer.

jacquesm 12y ago
He'll know if it was up to code if the place ever burns down and nobody finds fault with the installation. Note that insurance companies just love to find reasons not to pay out and if your installations was crap and your unlicensed work was the cause of the fire then you're in very hot (cold?) water. That's why water and sewage are less of a problem, they can still cause a crapload (hehe) of damage but the chances of injury or death of others is much less than when working with gas. Especially in places like apartment buildings.
hippich 12y ago
Where I live I can do my own installation of water heater, and yes, I had it inspected and i spoke with city inspectors on specific requirements (there were code changes and some additions had to be installed) Now back to my concern: 1) Plumbers never include inspection into their price, this is always on top of their work 2) I needed to install faucet - it is SUPER simple with today tools available (and yes, I bought these, just because I guess I like to collect tools) And plumbers still ask for $75/hr+ And I talk not about just plumbers, by in general "handy work". plumbers topic I see a bit tricky. Try to bring same argument with just people putting tiles on the wall or laying laminate floor.
- owenmarshall 12y ago
  >Try to bring same argument with just people [...] laying laminate floor. Sure, lets. But before we do, let's see what the average pay is for a floor layer [1]: the median annual wage is 35k. Floor layers aren't professional laborers - and they sure as hell aren't paid like they are! How about a tile setter? That requires some more skill, right? 37k[2]. So what's your argument again? [1]: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472042.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472042.htm [2]: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472044.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472044.htm
  - hippich 12y ago
    owenmarshall, first - i see a lot of people hired to do work on computers for less then 37k. So 37k for straightforward work - is not that bad. second - last time i hired someone to redo laminate floor they charged for work only ~1400. It was two guys spent two days (less than 8 hours total each day) working not exceptionally in hurry since it is fixed rate project I guess. Doing math it turns out to $43/hr. They are just couple guys who barely speak english. And this was the BEST price. "Companies" were charging 2x-3x for similar amount of work. Charging $43/hr in software freelancing is HARD and you have to justify this price. And no, these guys used help of someone else to post ad on craigslist because computers are hard.
    - owenmarshall 12y ago
      Did you hire those two guys? Or did you hire someone else that paid for tools, carried the insurance, and then hired two cheap day laborers for minimum wage and said "go lay this floor"? Most of the time it's the former. But if you really paid that much, maybe you're not that good at bargaining? But let's stop talking about plumbers and tile setters and get to what's really bugging you. > i see a lot of people hired to do work on computers for less then 37k > Charging $43/hr in software freelancing is HARD > (from your original comment) "they somehow charge often more than I can do." I'm gonna speak frankly here: you're either seriously overestimating your skills as a developer (and getting upset that people won't hire you) or you've managed to seriously undervalue your own work. If I had to guess, I'd guess it's the latter. I charge well over $43 an hour for actual freelancing - 1099-MISC, pay my own insurance, etc. Even in cases where I take a side gig while already having a job I typically charge more. I think I started around $45 an hour, and that was with a very limited skill set years ago. Far too many people undershoot the market rate and end up working for less than they should. The problem also is that when you undershoot the market rate you end up attracting clients that don't appreciate what you do and why it's hard, further depressing your pay. Here's what you should do: take whatever your hourly was when you last freelanced and multiply it by three. See what happens.
vonmoltke 12y ago
> And here's the big one: when you add up all money you spent getting the permits, the fees associated with taking the old one to the dump, the materials, etc. - be sure to also figure out how many hours you spent, multiply by your hourly rate, and subtract. I am not aware of any trades that do not charge for permits, materials, and disposal fees on top of their hourly rate. The one time I actually called a plumber, the $150/hr was straight labor. That said, I agree with the gist of your comment. People often underestimate how difficult it is to do things after only working with the simple cases or because they don't understand what is involved in doing something properly.
- hippich 12y ago
  Why when I ask someone to help with simple case they still charge me like they are working on high pressure gas pipe?
  - vonmoltke 12y ago
    Professionals and trades generally charge a consistent labor rate, regardless of the specific tasks. Adjusting the rate based on the specific tasks would be very complicated, impractical, and possibly open these people up to legal challenges about what work should be billed at.
    - owenmarshall 12y ago
      Yeah, this is really confusing to me. When I freelance I charge a fixed hourly rate no matter if I'm doing a 30 second site that's all Django scaffolding or something much more difficult. I also charge by the hour - so I'd take 1000 of those 30 second Django sites any day of the week :-) Heck, some good freelancers have a minimum engagement period in the days. For a tradesperson this is even more imperative: it's far easier for me to switch from one project to another; our plumber has to load their tools and drive to the next job site. This means the plumber is always going to charge a fixed rate or risk losing money because they took the "$35 unclog the sink" job over the "$220 'the poop is everywhere'" job.

jacquesm 12y ago

He'll know if it was up to code if the place ever burns down and nobody finds fault with the installation. Note that insurance companies just love to find reasons not to pay out and if your installations was crap and your unlicensed work was the cause of the fire then you're in very hot (cold?) water. That's why water and sewage are less of a problem, they can still cause a crapload (hehe) of damage but the chances of injury or death of others is much less than when working with gas. Especially in places like apartment buildings.

hippich 12y ago

Where I live I can do my own installation of water heater, and yes, I had it inspected and i spoke with city inspectors on specific requirements (there were code changes and some additions had to be installed) Now back to my concern: 1) Plumbers never include inspection into their price, this is always on top of their work 2) I needed to install faucet - it is SUPER simple with today tools available (and yes, I bought these, just because I guess I like to collect tools) And plumbers still ask for $75/hr+ And I talk not about just plumbers, by in general "handy work". plumbers topic I see a bit tricky. Try to bring same argument with just people putting tiles on the wall or laying laminate floor.

owenmarshall 12y ago
>Try to bring same argument with just people [...] laying laminate floor. Sure, lets. But before we do, let's see what the average pay is for a floor layer [1]: the median annual wage is 35k. Floor layers aren't professional laborers - and they sure as hell aren't paid like they are! How about a tile setter? That requires some more skill, right? 37k[2]. So what's your argument again? [1]: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472042.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472042.htm [2]: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472044.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472044.htm
- hippich 12y ago
  owenmarshall, first - i see a lot of people hired to do work on computers for less then 37k. So 37k for straightforward work - is not that bad. second - last time i hired someone to redo laminate floor they charged for work only ~1400. It was two guys spent two days (less than 8 hours total each day) working not exceptionally in hurry since it is fixed rate project I guess. Doing math it turns out to $43/hr. They are just couple guys who barely speak english. And this was the BEST price. "Companies" were charging 2x-3x for similar amount of work. Charging $43/hr in software freelancing is HARD and you have to justify this price. And no, these guys used help of someone else to post ad on craigslist because computers are hard.
  - owenmarshall 12y ago
    Did you hire those two guys? Or did you hire someone else that paid for tools, carried the insurance, and then hired two cheap day laborers for minimum wage and said "go lay this floor"? Most of the time it's the former. But if you really paid that much, maybe you're not that good at bargaining? But let's stop talking about plumbers and tile setters and get to what's really bugging you. > i see a lot of people hired to do work on computers for less then 37k > Charging $43/hr in software freelancing is HARD > (from your original comment) "they somehow charge often more than I can do." I'm gonna speak frankly here: you're either seriously overestimating your skills as a developer (and getting upset that people won't hire you) or you've managed to seriously undervalue your own work. If I had to guess, I'd guess it's the latter. I charge well over $43 an hour for actual freelancing - 1099-MISC, pay my own insurance, etc. Even in cases where I take a side gig while already having a job I typically charge more. I think I started around $45 an hour, and that was with a very limited skill set years ago. Far too many people undershoot the market rate and end up working for less than they should. The problem also is that when you undershoot the market rate you end up attracting clients that don't appreciate what you do and why it's hard, further depressing your pay. Here's what you should do: take whatever your hourly was when you last freelanced and multiply it by three. See what happens.

vonmoltke 12y ago

> And here's the big one: when you add up all money you spent getting the permits, the fees associated with taking the old one to the dump, the materials, etc. - be sure to also figure out how many hours you spent, multiply by your hourly rate, and subtract. I am not aware of any trades that do not charge for permits, materials, and disposal fees on top of their hourly rate. The one time I actually called a plumber, the $150/hr was straight labor. That said, I agree with the gist of your comment. People often underestimate how difficult it is to do things after only working with the simple cases or because they don't understand what is involved in doing something properly.

hippich 12y ago
Why when I ask someone to help with simple case they still charge me like they are working on high pressure gas pipe?
- vonmoltke 12y ago
  Professionals and trades generally charge a consistent labor rate, regardless of the specific tasks. Adjusting the rate based on the specific tasks would be very complicated, impractical, and possibly open these people up to legal challenges about what work should be billed at.
  - owenmarshall 12y ago
    Yeah, this is really confusing to me. When I freelance I charge a fixed hourly rate no matter if I'm doing a 30 second site that's all Django scaffolding or something much more difficult. I also charge by the hour - so I'd take 1000 of those 30 second Django sites any day of the week :-) Heck, some good freelancers have a minimum engagement period in the days. For a tradesperson this is even more imperative: it's far easier for me to switch from one project to another; our plumber has to load their tools and drive to the next job site. This means the plumber is always going to charge a fixed rate or risk losing money because they took the "$35 unclog the sink" job over the "$220 'the poop is everywhere'" job.