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> Why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federatio

by pipy 12y ago

> Why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federation from the sovereign territory of Ukraine? Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. > History shows that the truest way to harm civilians in conflict between groups that are not trying to kill civilians (either directly through systemic action or indirectly through things like famine) is to prolong the armed conflict by interceding on behalf of one side or the other. So you say that Russia should abandon support of people of Donetsk and Luhansk and leave them at the mercy of Kiev government, who is committing crimes against them? [1] I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. And he didn't get fined or jailed for these words, or even challenged by the TV host. If this is not Fascism, I don't know what is. Why don't you ask questions such as: who started this mess? What has Russia done to stop it? What has the West done to stop it? [1] http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-haw... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI

mpyne 12y ago
> Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. Or in other words, Russian military forces have invaded a neighboring nation, unless there is permission from Kiev for such uniformed armed forces to be on the sovereign territory of Ukraine?.... As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. So, yes, I would suggest Russia should "abandon" the people of Donetsk and Luhansk (and for that matter, Crimea), return to its own sovereign territory, and then the fighting will stop as there will quickly be no hostile forces to launch artillery or air strikes against. You implied with that link [1] that Russia intervened only after Kiev started committing atrocities against people in Donetsk and Luhansk, but the order appears to be completely opposite. > I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. > And he didn't get fined or jailed for this words, or even challenged by the TV host. He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? Maybe the TV host didn't challenge him because his comments are already so backward and idiotic as to not need further emphasis. And either way, are you trying to imply that some random asshole on T.V. spouting their stupid backward opinion about a million people he's never met, is justification enough to invade the sovereign territory of another nation. I mean, even Bush 43 tried to put a better case together than that when he went off to disaster in Iraq...
- pipy 12y ago
  > As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. No, it doesn't. Because there is no evidence of massive Russian troop presence, not to my knowledge. This is why you cannot attribute the sheer scale of Ukrainian Government actions to this issue. I will quote the article for your convenience: Poroshenko’s “peace plan” and June 21 cease-fire may have seemed such an opportunity, except for their two core conditions: fighters in the southeast first had to “lay down their arms,” and he alone would decide with whom to negotiate peace. The terms seemed more akin to conditions of surrender, and were probably the real reason Poroshenko unilaterally ended the cease-fire on July 1 and intensified Kiev’s assault on eastern cities, initially on the smaller towns of Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, which their defenders abandoned—to prevent more civilian casualities, they said—on July 5–6. [1] The fact that there is a genuine insurgency by the Eastern Ukrainians that is not attributable to Russian influence has been supported by multiple experts from different countries. [2] Even the sociologist that gets his money from US State Department says that: "And the polls which were done in the first half of [May--and?] it means after massacre in Odessa and after very brutal attack on Mariupol by Ukrainian forces, they were showing that at least even in Donbass there are various--some sort of support for the claims of separatists, and the people in Donbas saw their seizure of governmental buildings as people's [incompr.] not as a terrorist act, not as a Russian intervention. But this were the public opinion in Donbass." [3] >He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? OK, for me it was too emotional to claim this and to talk about this TV show. [1] http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-haw... [2] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=958 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=... [3] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12047 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...
  - mpyne 12y ago
    I don't doubt that there are people in Ukraine actually supportive of, and legitimately participating in, that separatist movement. But that is not, by itself, justification for Russia to intervene, especially unilaterally. It's not, never will be. Think of the logic: If there were a group of 5,000 Americans living in Russia (who had been forced to move there 50 years earlier during a period of American rule in Russia), and they rebelled against Moscow (after lengthy exhortations and propaganda from D.C.), would you really be OK with America sending military forces to intervene on behalf of those separatists? Would you be OK with America providing very advanced weaponry, passports, military support, intelligence support, international top cover and more, all to support this separatist movement? Or would you say that it was an internal matter for Russians to resolve amongst themselves, and that other states should stay out of the sovereign territory of the Russian Federation? I can tell you the U.S. certainly didn't want outside intervention during our own civil war. See, this isn't two states playing covert war games in a third state, this is Ukraine fighting for its sovereignty against a separatist movement (however many legitimate aspects it might contain), with Ukraine's bordering neighbor deliberately intervening to tilt the scales as they wish.
BugBrother 12y ago
>>Why don't you ask questions such as: who started this mess? You mean Ukraine when it militarily destabilized and took over Krim? Oh, wait... :-)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- pipy 12y ago
  > You mean Ukraine when it militarily destabilized and took over Krim? How many people have died in Crimea?
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    (Karma 34 account.) I can only see that comment as this argument: You REALLY think that dead civilians are on the heads of those countries defending themselves from military takeovers by non-democratic juntas, like Putin's. Ah wait! You also claim that this about large Russian military support of the rebels is just another Western conspiracy. After the Krim takeover, Putin thanked the responsible Russian army units for good work and handed out medals. Before the Krim takeover, Putin claimed that there were no Russian military involvement. An obvious lie. It is ridiculous to even consider that there are "just volunteers" again. The similarities makes it look like excerpts out of some internal Russian play book of how to do military takeovers. Especially since there are contradicting satellite pictures, recorded conversations, etc. From USA and Ukraine. Edit: Mainstream news references, not "therealnews", of moved tanks. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-images-idUSKBN0EP0HK20140614 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-... Edit 2: There are similar articles about the BUK anti air system (with varying explanations out of Moscow and interviews (/social media) with rebels). There have also been articles about satellite pictures showing Russian artillery firing on Ukraine military units. Google yourself. Then you have recorded discussions of Russian and rebel discussions, etc, etc. Again, this is mainstream over the last few weeks -- let me know if you really need me to Google for you. Here is the BBC with voice recordings etc. Denied (with demands not to lay blame!!) from Putin. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880 Edit 3: Russia shot artillery at Ukraine (just more lies, of course): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153 Edit 4: Anything else I should Google for you? Edit 5: Is this your position? You seem to not argue against that Putin lied about military involvement before the Krim takeover. You claim that there aren't enough proofs (and/or that all Western media lies) that his junta is doing exactly the same thing now, just because it looks so similar in action/time? (I am sorry if this makes you sound stupid/dishonest, but...)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
PerfectDlite 12y ago
How wonderful of you to provide link [2] to a real interview, but trying to support kremlin fakes with that link. TL;DR - he didn't said "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation"

by pipy 12y ago

mpyne 12y ago

> Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. Or in other words, Russian military forces have invaded a neighboring nation, unless there is permission from Kiev for such uniformed armed forces to be on the sovereign territory of Ukraine?.... As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. So, yes, I would suggest Russia should "abandon" the people of Donetsk and Luhansk (and for that matter, Crimea), return to its own sovereign territory, and then the fighting will stop as there will quickly be no hostile forces to launch artillery or air strikes against. You implied with that link [1] that Russia intervened only after Kiev started committing atrocities against people in Donetsk and Luhansk, but the order appears to be completely opposite. > I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. > And he didn't get fined or jailed for this words, or even challenged by the TV host. He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? Maybe the TV host didn't challenge him because his comments are already so backward and idiotic as to not need further emphasis. And either way, are you trying to imply that some random asshole on T.V. spouting their stupid backward opinion about a million people he's never met, is justification enough to invade the sovereign territory of another nation. I mean, even Bush 43 tried to put a better case together than that when he went off to disaster in Iraq...

pipy 12y ago
> As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. No, it doesn't. Because there is no evidence of massive Russian troop presence, not to my knowledge. This is why you cannot attribute the sheer scale of Ukrainian Government actions to this issue. I will quote the article for your convenience: Poroshenko’s “peace plan” and June 21 cease-fire may have seemed such an opportunity, except for their two core conditions: fighters in the southeast first had to “lay down their arms,” and he alone would decide with whom to negotiate peace. The terms seemed more akin to conditions of surrender, and were probably the real reason Poroshenko unilaterally ended the cease-fire on July 1 and intensified Kiev’s assault on eastern cities, initially on the smaller towns of Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, which their defenders abandoned—to prevent more civilian casualities, they said—on July 5–6. [1] The fact that there is a genuine insurgency by the Eastern Ukrainians that is not attributable to Russian influence has been supported by multiple experts from different countries. [2] Even the sociologist that gets his money from US State Department says that: "And the polls which were done in the first half of [May--and?] it means after massacre in Odessa and after very brutal attack on Mariupol by Ukrainian forces, they were showing that at least even in Donbass there are various--some sort of support for the claims of separatists, and the people in Donbas saw their seizure of governmental buildings as people's [incompr.] not as a terrorist act, not as a Russian intervention. But this were the public opinion in Donbass." [3] >He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? OK, for me it was too emotional to claim this and to talk about this TV show. [1] http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-haw... [2] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=958 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=... [3] http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12047 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...
- mpyne 12y ago
  I don't doubt that there are people in Ukraine actually supportive of, and legitimately participating in, that separatist movement. But that is not, by itself, justification for Russia to intervene, especially unilaterally. It's not, never will be. Think of the logic: If there were a group of 5,000 Americans living in Russia (who had been forced to move there 50 years earlier during a period of American rule in Russia), and they rebelled against Moscow (after lengthy exhortations and propaganda from D.C.), would you really be OK with America sending military forces to intervene on behalf of those separatists? Would you be OK with America providing very advanced weaponry, passports, military support, intelligence support, international top cover and more, all to support this separatist movement? Or would you say that it was an internal matter for Russians to resolve amongst themselves, and that other states should stay out of the sovereign territory of the Russian Federation? I can tell you the U.S. certainly didn't want outside intervention during our own civil war. See, this isn't two states playing covert war games in a third state, this is Ukraine fighting for its sovereignty against a separatist movement (however many legitimate aspects it might contain), with Ukraine's bordering neighbor deliberately intervening to tilt the scales as they wish.

BugBrother 12y ago

>>Why don't you ask questions such as: who started this mess? You mean Ukraine when it militarily destabilized and took over Krim? Oh, wait... :-)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pipy 12y ago
> You mean Ukraine when it militarily destabilized and took over Krim? How many people have died in Crimea?
- BugBrother 12y ago
  (Karma 34 account.) I can only see that comment as this argument: You REALLY think that dead civilians are on the heads of those countries defending themselves from military takeovers by non-democratic juntas, like Putin's. Ah wait! You also claim that this about large Russian military support of the rebels is just another Western conspiracy. After the Krim takeover, Putin thanked the responsible Russian army units for good work and handed out medals. Before the Krim takeover, Putin claimed that there were no Russian military involvement. An obvious lie. It is ridiculous to even consider that there are "just volunteers" again. The similarities makes it look like excerpts out of some internal Russian play book of how to do military takeovers. Especially since there are contradicting satellite pictures, recorded conversations, etc. From USA and Ukraine. Edit: Mainstream news references, not "therealnews", of moved tanks. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-images-idUSKBN0EP0HK20140614 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/14/us-ukraine-crisis-... Edit 2: There are similar articles about the BUK anti air system (with varying explanations out of Moscow and interviews (/social media) with rebels). There have also been articles about satellite pictures showing Russian artillery firing on Ukraine military units. Google yourself. Then you have recorded discussions of Russian and rebel discussions, etc, etc. Again, this is mainstream over the last few weeks -- let me know if you really need me to Google for you. Here is the BBC with voice recordings etc. Denied (with demands not to lay blame!!) from Putin. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880 Edit 3: Russia shot artillery at Ukraine (just more lies, of course): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153 Edit 4: Anything else I should Google for you? Edit 5: Is this your position? You seem to not argue against that Putin lied about military involvement before the Krim takeover. You claim that there aren't enough proofs (and/or that all Western media lies) that his junta is doing exactly the same thing now, just because it looks so similar in action/time? (I am sorry if this makes you sound stupid/dishonest, but...)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

PerfectDlite 12y ago

How wonderful of you to provide link [2] to a real interview, but trying to support kremlin fakes with that link. TL;DR - he didn't said "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation"