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I live in Russia and in the past have been running a website that criticizes Russian elites and Putin in particular for years, the one that fails under this law

by pipy 12y ago

I live in Russia and in the past have been running a website that criticizes Russian elites and Putin in particular for years, the one that fails under this law, BTW. But why do I get outraged by the unsourced comments as yours even more than by this stupid law? I personally challenge you: I will provide you with information that I'm a real person and my claim about running website criticizing Russian elites is real if you take time to explain why is it OK for the West to support regime that kills Ukrainian civilians en masse. You keep churning unsourced "Russian shills everywhere" message, while ignoring two simple possibilities: 1. While there are Russian Government shills on the Internet, as well as Western ones, real Russian people can also be genuinely outraged by actions of the West. 2. The West may be in reality backing puppet regime that commits horrific crimes. P.S. It is ironic that I'm probably the single person in this thread that is really affected by this law and at the same time I am being modded down.

mpyne 12y ago
> why is it OK for the West to support regime that kills Ukrainian civilians en masse. Why do you try to imply that identifying pro-Putin shills is equivalent to supporting "a [Ukrainian] regime that kills Ukrainian civilians en masse"? Assuming your supposition is true for now, why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federation from the sovereign territory [1] of Ukraine? History shows that the truest way to harm civilians in conflict between groups that are not trying to kill civilians (either directly through systemic action or indirectly through things like famine) is to prolong the armed conflict by interceding on behalf of one side or the other. But even if you're completely right and not involuntarily affected by propaganda yourself, just because someone tries to keep a comment board free of "shills" of all types doesn't mean someone is necessarily aligned with any side, which is an issue you appear to be conflating here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty
- pipy 12y ago
  > Why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federation from the sovereign territory of Ukraine? Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. > History shows that the truest way to harm civilians in conflict between groups that are not trying to kill civilians (either directly through systemic action or indirectly through things like famine) is to prolong the armed conflict by interceding on behalf of one side or the other. So you say that Russia should abandon support of people of Donetsk and Luhansk and leave them at the mercy of Kiev government, who is committing crimes against them? [1] I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. And he didn't get fined or jailed for these words, or even challenged by the TV host. If this is not Fascism, I don't know what is. Why don't you ask questions such as: who started this mess? What has Russia done to stop it? What has the West done to stop it? [1] http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-haw... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI
  - mpyne 12y ago
    > Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. Or in other words, Russian military forces have invaded a neighboring nation, unless there is permission from Kiev for such uniformed armed forces to be on the sovereign territory of Ukraine?.... As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. So, yes, I would suggest Russia should "abandon" the people of Donetsk and Luhansk (and for that matter, Crimea), return to its own sovereign territory, and then the fighting will stop as there will quickly be no hostile forces to launch artillery or air strikes against. You implied with that link [1] that Russia intervened only after Kiev started committing atrocities against people in Donetsk and Luhansk, but the order appears to be completely opposite. > I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. > And he didn't get fined or jailed for this words, or even challenged by the TV host. He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? Maybe the TV host didn't challenge him because his comments are already so backward and idiotic as to not need further emphasis. And either way, are you trying to imply that some random asshole on T.V. spouting their stupid backward opinion about a million people he's never met, is justification enough to invade the sovereign territory of another nation. I mean, even Bush 43 tried to put a better case together than that when he went off to disaster in Iraq...
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >Why do you try to imply that identifying pro-Putin shills Identifying pro-Putin shills is not what's being done here. This is just accusing people that don't agree with everything said about Russia and the depiction in the US media of the current conflict in Ukraine of being Russian shills. I remember when people who questioned the Iraq war had to constantly defend themselves from accusations of being terrorist shills. This has the exact same chilling effect. edit: I am honestly interested in evidence of shill posting. I enjoy the detective work. If your evidence of shilling is that you think that the opinions people hold could only be held by shills, you're just stifling dissent in the traditional way that it has always been done. It's no more noble or complex than that.
  - pipy 12y ago
    @pessimizer, if you are interested: 1. You can provide me with your disposable one-time Gmail address (needed for GA). 2. I will send you my real name, give you temporary access to Google Analytics account for the website and some selected Google-translated pages from it. Possibly provide more information if needed. 3. You can support that I am not a shill in this discussion and that my claim about the law in OP affecting me is true.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      I don't think in any way that you are a shill. And if you were, it wouldn't affect the validity of your arguments in any way. Shills only rise to the level of concern to me if they drown out all discussion that disagrees with them - and people who do that don't even have to be paid for me to consider them shills. i.e I already support that you aren't a shill, and people who are interested in journalism or the protection of freedom of expression would do well by listening to your own experience in your own country under your own country's laws rather than poisoning the well with accusations (and no evidence.)
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      It's very sad that this should even be required. What a nonsense.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  The Ukraine forces do appear to be using unguided grad rockets in areas where they end up hitting civilians, which is a war crime. http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-... The insurgents are also accused of using grads, but this whole thing is far from being one sided.

by pipy 12y ago

mpyne 12y ago

> why is it OK for the West to support regime that kills Ukrainian civilians en masse. Why do you try to imply that identifying pro-Putin shills is equivalent to supporting "a [Ukrainian] regime that kills Ukrainian civilians en masse"? Assuming your supposition is true for now, why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federation from the sovereign territory [1] of Ukraine? History shows that the truest way to harm civilians in conflict between groups that are not trying to kill civilians (either directly through systemic action or indirectly through things like famine) is to prolong the armed conflict by interceding on behalf of one side or the other. But even if you're completely right and not involuntarily affected by propaganda yourself, just because someone tries to keep a comment board free of "shills" of all types doesn't mean someone is necessarily aligned with any side, which is an issue you appear to be conflating here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

pipy 12y ago
> Why do you not go further and think to imply that these civilians would not be getting killed en masse if Putin would withdraw forces of the Russian Federation from the sovereign territory of Ukraine? Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. > History shows that the truest way to harm civilians in conflict between groups that are not trying to kill civilians (either directly through systemic action or indirectly through things like famine) is to prolong the armed conflict by interceding on behalf of one side or the other. So you say that Russia should abandon support of people of Donetsk and Luhansk and leave them at the mercy of Kiev government, who is committing crimes against them? [1] I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. And he didn't get fined or jailed for these words, or even challenged by the TV host. If this is not Fascism, I don't know what is. Why don't you ask questions such as: who started this mess? What has Russia done to stop it? What has the West done to stop it? [1] http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-haw... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCD4RS9LsTI
- mpyne 12y ago
  > Because there are no forces of Russian federation, probably apart from some Spec Ops, logistics and reconnaissance units. Or in other words, Russian military forces have invaded a neighboring nation, unless there is permission from Kiev for such uniformed armed forces to be on the sovereign territory of Ukraine?.... As far as I can tell, your link [1] implies that the only reason Kiev is using air strikes or artillery is because of the presence of hostile military forces in their sovereign territory. So, yes, I would suggest Russia should "abandon" the people of Donetsk and Luhansk (and for that matter, Crimea), return to its own sovereign territory, and then the fighting will stop as there will quickly be no hostile forces to launch artillery or air strikes against. You implied with that link [1] that Russia intervened only after Kiev started committing atrocities against people in Donetsk and Luhansk, but the order appears to be completely opposite. > I actually watch Ukrainian mainstream television and recently one of the experts was openly talking about the need to "physically eliminate about 1.5 million of civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk regions that are not able to fit in Ukrainian Nation" [2]. > And he didn't get fined or jailed for this words, or even challenged by the TV host. He wouldn't be fined or jailed in the U.S. either, due to the First Amendment (although maybe you could make a good case that it's "hate speech"). Does that make the U.S. "fascist"? Maybe the TV host didn't challenge him because his comments are already so backward and idiotic as to not need further emphasis. And either way, are you trying to imply that some random asshole on T.V. spouting their stupid backward opinion about a million people he's never met, is justification enough to invade the sovereign territory of another nation. I mean, even Bush 43 tried to put a better case together than that when he went off to disaster in Iraq...
pessimizer 12y ago
>Why do you try to imply that identifying pro-Putin shills Identifying pro-Putin shills is not what's being done here. This is just accusing people that don't agree with everything said about Russia and the depiction in the US media of the current conflict in Ukraine of being Russian shills. I remember when people who questioned the Iraq war had to constantly defend themselves from accusations of being terrorist shills. This has the exact same chilling effect. edit: I am honestly interested in evidence of shill posting. I enjoy the detective work. If your evidence of shilling is that you think that the opinions people hold could only be held by shills, you're just stifling dissent in the traditional way that it has always been done. It's no more noble or complex than that.
- pipy 12y ago
  @pessimizer, if you are interested: 1. You can provide me with your disposable one-time Gmail address (needed for GA). 2. I will send you my real name, give you temporary access to Google Analytics account for the website and some selected Google-translated pages from it. Possibly provide more information if needed. 3. You can support that I am not a shill in this discussion and that my claim about the law in OP affecting me is true.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    I don't think in any way that you are a shill. And if you were, it wouldn't affect the validity of your arguments in any way. Shills only rise to the level of concern to me if they drown out all discussion that disagrees with them - and people who do that don't even have to be paid for me to consider them shills. i.e I already support that you aren't a shill, and people who are interested in journalism or the protection of freedom of expression would do well by listening to your own experience in your own country under your own country's laws rather than poisoning the well with accusations (and no evidence.)
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    It's very sad that this should even be required. What a nonsense.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
The Ukraine forces do appear to be using unguided grad rockets in areas where they end up hitting civilians, which is a war crime. http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-... The insurgents are also accused of using grads, but this whole thing is far from being one sided.