5 ms·

It amaze me how easy people accusing others of being pro-Putin activists and not having independent opinion. Strictly speaking _everyone_ is influenced by what

by grepz 12y ago

It amaze me how easy people accusing others of being pro-Putin activists and not having independent opinion. Strictly speaking _everyone_ is influenced by what they read and by people they talk to in one way or another. When I put Syria and Ukraine in the same line i mean: 1. I think that what is happening in eastern Ukraine right now is logical consequence of Kiev events. Having a few friends living in Kiev, some of them where on Maidan supporting the revolution and a few friends living in Donbass who supports pro-Russian forces I receive alot of controversial information from both sides. For me it is obvious: it is a civil war right now. Same in Syria. 2. Both countries are playground for major political forces. 3. Both countries are in a really bad state right now.

omonra 12y ago
1. False. The events in Eastern Ukraine have been planned by Russia a decade ago (ie there are photos of Russians waving flags of 'Donetsk Republic' in the mid 2000's). Same with annexation of Crimea - Russia just used the opportunity to execute the plan. Even the execution started before Yanukovich left the country (such as movement of troops, etc). 2. It's not a civil war and the forces in Eastern ukraine are not 'pro-Russian'. They are Russian forces (do lookup its leaders - Girkin, Bezler, Antyufeyev, etc). They are all Russian and are members of various branches of Russian government - FSB, GRU, etc. Your points 2 & 3 i won't even address as they are 'not even wrong'. Any conflict can be described as 'playground for political forces' and 'bad state'. That's why it's a conflict.
- grepz 12y ago
  I don't want to support any side of conflict mostly because I personally know people from both camps. Ukraine and Russia are connected to each other more then they want to and much more then ordinary person who reads western media knows. Connected in all aspects, cultural, family ties, friendship, buisness, ethnic. You may not believe me but current situation is like if Canada decided to have a trade/military treaty with Russia breaking any ties with US at the same time. So before this conflict waving russian flag was actually quite normal. Theres alot of russians fighting in ranks of DNR/LNR forces, true. But theres alot of Ukrainians too. You may call this conflict anything you want, but if one group of citizens fight with the other it is civil war. This conflict is supported by russian government only blind will say that LNR/DNR are on their own. The main thing is: LNR/DNR are possible only because they are supported by locals and because of actions of Kiev right after Maidan. Statements that where made by Kiev politics, law acts they enforced, there where alot of mistakes made by Kiev government that led to current situation. Some information to consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine#Proposals_for_repeal_and_revision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukr... http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:2001_Ukr_ethno.png http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:2001_U... (red color is for people who pose themselves as ethnically russians) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Protests_against_the_new_government http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Prote... (just to understand what actions of new government caused so much protest) Theres alot of information in russian internet but you probably dismiss it as being propaganda and me being brain-washed again.
  - omonra 12y ago
    I'm a Russian speaker myself, so am well aware of what is going on. And I won't let you call it civil war. All leaders are Russian soldiers, all weapons are from Russia, etc, etc. There probably are 20-30% locals, even less among the fighting forces. So please stop. As far as information in the Russian internet, I will provide one story for the Western readers so they have an idea of what kind of shit cesspool russian media have become: http://www.stopfake.org/en/the-crucifixion-of-a-3-year-old-the-u-s-helped-kiev-shoot-down-flight-17-and-other-tales-the-kremlin-media-tell/ http://www.stopfake.org/en/the-crucifixion-of-a-3-year-old-t...
    - grepz 12y ago
      It sounds rather strange actually: "And I won't let you call it civil war" As I've said, you may call it whatever you want, it is civil war. I bet in every civil conflict people tend to think that the other side of conflict is some kind of rogues, bandits, terrorists, mercenaries, foreign agents(hello 1917). It still doesnt change anything. I'll use public definitions: "Civil war is a violent conflict within a country fought by organized groups that aim to take power at the center or in a region, or to change government policies". Ring anything?
      - omonra 12y ago
        You can call it an ice skating competition - doing so doesn't make it more true. Instead - can you name 5 people who are at the top of the LNR / DNR with their respective citizenships. I'll give you a little help: 1. Girkin 2. Bezler 3. Borodai 4. Bolotov
        grepz 12y ago
        I'd love to see it as ice skating competition(or any other kind of sport event), means no weapons and deaths, unfortunately it is not. Trying to stay on a field of well known definitions not emotions. Theres well documented cases when ukrainian representatives of law enforcment forces taking a LNR/DNR side. Not only ex-Berkut.

by grepz 12y ago

omonra 12y ago

1. False. The events in Eastern Ukraine have been planned by Russia a decade ago (ie there are photos of Russians waving flags of 'Donetsk Republic' in the mid 2000's). Same with annexation of Crimea - Russia just used the opportunity to execute the plan. Even the execution started before Yanukovich left the country (such as movement of troops, etc). 2. It's not a civil war and the forces in Eastern ukraine are not 'pro-Russian'. They are Russian forces (do lookup its leaders - Girkin, Bezler, Antyufeyev, etc). They are all Russian and are members of various branches of Russian government - FSB, GRU, etc. Your points 2 & 3 i won't even address as they are 'not even wrong'. Any conflict can be described as 'playground for political forces' and 'bad state'. That's why it's a conflict.

grepz 12y ago
I don't want to support any side of conflict mostly because I personally know people from both camps. Ukraine and Russia are connected to each other more then they want to and much more then ordinary person who reads western media knows. Connected in all aspects, cultural, family ties, friendship, buisness, ethnic. You may not believe me but current situation is like if Canada decided to have a trade/military treaty with Russia breaking any ties with US at the same time. So before this conflict waving russian flag was actually quite normal. Theres alot of russians fighting in ranks of DNR/LNR forces, true. But theres alot of Ukrainians too. You may call this conflict anything you want, but if one group of citizens fight with the other it is civil war. This conflict is supported by russian government only blind will say that LNR/DNR are on their own. The main thing is: LNR/DNR are possible only because they are supported by locals and because of actions of Kiev right after Maidan. Statements that where made by Kiev politics, law acts they enforced, there where alot of mistakes made by Kiev government that led to current situation. Some information to consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine#Proposals_for_repeal_and_revision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukr... http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:2001_Ukr_ethno.png http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:2001_U... (red color is for people who pose themselves as ethnically russians) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Protests_against_the_new_government http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#Prote... (just to understand what actions of new government caused so much protest) Theres alot of information in russian internet but you probably dismiss it as being propaganda and me being brain-washed again.
- omonra 12y ago
  I'm a Russian speaker myself, so am well aware of what is going on. And I won't let you call it civil war. All leaders are Russian soldiers, all weapons are from Russia, etc, etc. There probably are 20-30% locals, even less among the fighting forces. So please stop. As far as information in the Russian internet, I will provide one story for the Western readers so they have an idea of what kind of shit cesspool russian media have become: http://www.stopfake.org/en/the-crucifixion-of-a-3-year-old-the-u-s-helped-kiev-shoot-down-flight-17-and-other-tales-the-kremlin-media-tell/ http://www.stopfake.org/en/the-crucifixion-of-a-3-year-old-t...
  - grepz 12y ago
    It sounds rather strange actually: "And I won't let you call it civil war" As I've said, you may call it whatever you want, it is civil war. I bet in every civil conflict people tend to think that the other side of conflict is some kind of rogues, bandits, terrorists, mercenaries, foreign agents(hello 1917). It still doesnt change anything. I'll use public definitions: "Civil war is a violent conflict within a country fought by organized groups that aim to take power at the center or in a region, or to change government policies". Ring anything?
    - omonra 12y ago
      You can call it an ice skating competition - doing so doesn't make it more true. Instead - can you name 5 people who are at the top of the LNR / DNR with their respective citizenships. I'll give you a little help: 1. Girkin 2. Bezler 3. Borodai 4. Bolotov
      - grepz 12y ago
        I'd love to see it as ice skating competition(or any other kind of sport event), means no weapons and deaths, unfortunately it is not. Trying to stay on a field of well known definitions not emotions. Theres well documented cases when ukrainian representatives of law enforcment forces taking a LNR/DNR side. Not only ex-Berkut.