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I remember those days and the world was outraged. How is that a different attitude? But unlike MH17, the US took the downing of the Iranian airliner right on t

I remember those days and the world was outraged. How is that a different attitude? But unlike MH17, the US took the downing of the Iranian airliner right on the chin and didn't try to deflect. They went to court (ICJ), paid the victims, and punished those responsible. It's too bad we don't see that with MH17. I wonder if we will ever see those responsible punished.

jacquesm 12y ago
The US did not punish those responsible. No formal apology was ever even issued, no liability was accepted, those responsible were decorated, not punished. The US paid the value of the Jet they shot down and some money per victim but never admitted any guilt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- ianstallings 12y ago
  I stand corrected. But I will note that Captain Rogers never commanded another ship after the Vincennes returned to the US in 1989. My main point still stands though. The US acknowledged the mistake and took measures to make sure it didn't happen again. Will we ever see the same from MH17?
- mpyne 12y ago
  > The US did not punish those responsible. That's because no one person was directly responsible. Even for assholes like CAPT Rogers (who certainly did everything he could to get his ship into a bad situation [1]), no Navy commanding officer wakes up in the morning hoping to get to push the button on a civilian airliner. There was much more that went into Iran Air 655 than a rogue captain [2]. And while there's plenty of room for blame to go around (we could ask the same question of military officers in 1988 as we do of Russia today: Why did you have this advanced weapons system in the hands of people so seemingly untrained and aggressive?), simply lopping off heads because something horrible happened is no more just than mob rule. There's a reason we don't simply fire everyone involved with civil aviation crashes, for example. The "decorations" you refer to were given as a standard element of completing a tour at a duty station. They are given to everybody who completes a tour at a duty station, with the type of decoration being dependent upon rank. You're right that the actions of the U.S. remain unacceptable, but I think we would all be happier if we could get either the separatists and/or Russia's GRU to pay the families of the victims and pay Malaysian Airlines to replace the Boeing. I mean, even the U.S. could be bothered to do that for a nation they had been literally fighting in the waters of the Persian Gulf! Last I checked Russia wasn't in armed conflict with the Netherlands or Malaysia. [1] http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-... (Don't be fooled by USNI here, this piece is damning of CAPT Rogers) [2] http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-422-human-supervisory-control-of-automated-systems-spring-2004/projects/vincennes.pdf http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-4...
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    > Last I checked Russia wasn't in armed conflict with the Netherlands or Malaysia. Russia did not shoot down that jet, that's definitely not confirmed by anybody or even seriously suggested, it was most likely downed from Eastern Ukraine by separatists or by Russian troops operating under the 'republic of Donetsk' flag (in so far as such a thing actually exists). The Ukraine is not Russia, but is very well possible that the unit was manned by Russian 'advisors' and/or that it was actually the property of the Russian state. This will hopefully all come out in time. If and when it does I hope that the results will not further de-stabilize the region. In my opinion those responsible for the Iranian passenger jet affair should have been taken off-duty immediately and sacked without a pension. Essentially the US has sanctioned such behavior since there were no penalties. You don't get ahead by comparing yourself with the likes of Russia and the GRU or the Separatists, you only get ahead by asking yourself what the right response should be to such actions. And as such I don't think the US has the moral high ground when it comes to incidents like these. Putin is a bandit, his buddies are no better. But at least they're not fooling anybody (at least, so I hope). And Captain Rogers should have been discharged without honor, that would have sent two messages at once: to the rest of the service that the US does not tolerate such cowboy actions and to the rest of the world that they will punish those that perpetrate them. That would have given the US some right to be harsh with Putin and/or the separatists. As for giving advanced weapons systems in the hands of untrained and aggressive people: I note that captain Rogers was probably highly trained but also very aggressive and that he too made a similar call so the Russians are no better than the Americans about who they give their advanced weapons system to, separatists and highly trained commanders are all not immune to making very terrible errors of judgment. I'm actually more hopeful about those responsible in the MH17 affair to be brought to justice than those in the Iranian passenger jet incident (if that were to happen one would think it would have happened by now).
    - mpyne 12y ago
      > you only get ahead by asking yourself what the right response should be to such actions How appropriate, as that is all the world has asked for from Putin. I mean, Obama could figure out why you don't give advanced weaponry to the "good guys" in Syria, what aneurysm did Putin have to give both SA-11 sets and the intensive training to use the same to a bunch of poorly-led and poorly-trained separatists? We'll ignore for now the command links amongst separatist leaders reaching back to Russia, because even if those were completely absent the question would remain valid. "Moral high ground" or not...

jacquesm 12y ago

The US did not punish those responsible. No formal apology was ever even issued, no liability was accepted, those responsible were decorated, not punished. The US paid the value of the Jet they shot down and some money per victim but never admitted any guilt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

ianstallings 12y ago
I stand corrected. But I will note that Captain Rogers never commanded another ship after the Vincennes returned to the US in 1989. My main point still stands though. The US acknowledged the mistake and took measures to make sure it didn't happen again. Will we ever see the same from MH17?
mpyne 12y ago
> The US did not punish those responsible. That's because no one person was directly responsible. Even for assholes like CAPT Rogers (who certainly did everything he could to get his ship into a bad situation [1]), no Navy commanding officer wakes up in the morning hoping to get to push the button on a civilian airliner. There was much more that went into Iran Air 655 than a rogue captain [2]. And while there's plenty of room for blame to go around (we could ask the same question of military officers in 1988 as we do of Russia today: Why did you have this advanced weapons system in the hands of people so seemingly untrained and aggressive?), simply lopping off heads because something horrible happened is no more just than mob rule. There's a reason we don't simply fire everyone involved with civil aviation crashes, for example. The "decorations" you refer to were given as a standard element of completing a tour at a duty station. They are given to everybody who completes a tour at a duty station, with the type of decoration being dependent upon rank. You're right that the actions of the U.S. remain unacceptable, but I think we would all be happier if we could get either the separatists and/or Russia's GRU to pay the families of the victims and pay Malaysian Airlines to replace the Boeing. I mean, even the U.S. could be bothered to do that for a nation they had been literally fighting in the waters of the Persian Gulf! Last I checked Russia wasn't in armed conflict with the Netherlands or Malaysia. [1] http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-... (Don't be fooled by USNI here, this piece is damning of CAPT Rogers) [2] http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-422-human-supervisory-control-of-automated-systems-spring-2004/projects/vincennes.pdf http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-4...
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > Last I checked Russia wasn't in armed conflict with the Netherlands or Malaysia. Russia did not shoot down that jet, that's definitely not confirmed by anybody or even seriously suggested, it was most likely downed from Eastern Ukraine by separatists or by Russian troops operating under the 'republic of Donetsk' flag (in so far as such a thing actually exists). The Ukraine is not Russia, but is very well possible that the unit was manned by Russian 'advisors' and/or that it was actually the property of the Russian state. This will hopefully all come out in time. If and when it does I hope that the results will not further de-stabilize the region. In my opinion those responsible for the Iranian passenger jet affair should have been taken off-duty immediately and sacked without a pension. Essentially the US has sanctioned such behavior since there were no penalties. You don't get ahead by comparing yourself with the likes of Russia and the GRU or the Separatists, you only get ahead by asking yourself what the right response should be to such actions. And as such I don't think the US has the moral high ground when it comes to incidents like these. Putin is a bandit, his buddies are no better. But at least they're not fooling anybody (at least, so I hope). And Captain Rogers should have been discharged without honor, that would have sent two messages at once: to the rest of the service that the US does not tolerate such cowboy actions and to the rest of the world that they will punish those that perpetrate them. That would have given the US some right to be harsh with Putin and/or the separatists. As for giving advanced weapons systems in the hands of untrained and aggressive people: I note that captain Rogers was probably highly trained but also very aggressive and that he too made a similar call so the Russians are no better than the Americans about who they give their advanced weapons system to, separatists and highly trained commanders are all not immune to making very terrible errors of judgment. I'm actually more hopeful about those responsible in the MH17 affair to be brought to justice than those in the Iranian passenger jet incident (if that were to happen one would think it would have happened by now).
  - mpyne 12y ago
    > you only get ahead by asking yourself what the right response should be to such actions How appropriate, as that is all the world has asked for from Putin. I mean, Obama could figure out why you don't give advanced weaponry to the "good guys" in Syria, what aneurysm did Putin have to give both SA-11 sets and the intensive training to use the same to a bunch of poorly-led and poorly-trained separatists? We'll ignore for now the command links amongst separatist leaders reaching back to Russia, because even if those were completely absent the question would remain valid. "Moral high ground" or not...