6 ms·

There where too many bloody revolutions in russian history. And looking at Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Lybia and many other countries after the revolution epidemia t

by grepz 12y ago

There where too many bloody revolutions in russian history. And looking at Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Lybia and many other countries after the revolution epidemia theres not much russians who thinks that overthrowing the government is a good idea. Even amongst those russians who think that mr Putin is a bad choice.

adamnemecek 12y ago
Apparently, Russian shills discovered HN.
- grepz 12y ago
  I am reading HN for over 1.5 years, not that much, but still. Yes, i've registered account only few hours ago when I understood that by upvoting the article I can save it in my account, so no need for bookmarking anymore. It is sad that you jump to conclusions so fast.
  - adamnemecek 12y ago
    Is it sad? Blindly supporting a pseudo-fascist regime seems sadder.
    - grepz 12y ago
      I am not supporting Putin and co. I don't like many things happening at the moment in my country. But if you put revolution on a scale - no thank you.
      - omonra 12y ago
        The fact that you put Syria and Ukraine in the same sentence when describing 'revolutions' shows that you're fairly brain-washed. If not by Channel 1 - then by the paid bloggers that dominate Livejournal top pos list these days.
        pjc50 12y ago
        Not everyone who disagrees with you on international politics is brainwashed. Edit: no, really, it is possible for someone to reach different conclusions from you without being "brainwashed", paid, deluded, or a sockpuppet. People think differently about the world and are operating from different sets of knowledge and beliefs. And different levels of cynicism about international power politics.
        BugBrother 12y ago
        True -- when the subject is Russia today, there are lots of paid people too. (And if you think it is bad in English, be happy that you don't have to swim through the mangled comments in Swedish. But in the last 2-3 months they have gotten a bunch of people with better Swedish.) Edit: Answer to the Edit. Of course I know that. I ALSO know that few well read people sincerely believe in that the whole world's [democratic] media are in a conspiracy against just Russia and the only truth is in Putin's controlled media. But yes, people do believe in conspiracy theories.
        grepz 12y ago
        It amaze me how easy people accusing others of being pro-Putin activists and not having independent opinion. Strictly speaking _everyone_ is influenced by what they read and by people they talk to in one way or another. When I put Syria and Ukraine in the same line i mean: 1. I think that what is happening in eastern Ukraine right now is logical consequence of Kiev events. Having a few friends living in Kiev, some of them where on Maidan supporting the revolution and a few friends living in Donbass who supports pro-Russian forces I receive alot of controversial information from both sides. For me it is obvious: it is a civil war right now. Same in Syria. 2. Both countries are playground for major political forces. 3. Both countries are in a really bad state right now.
        omonra 12y ago
        1. False. The events in Eastern Ukraine have been planned by Russia a decade ago (ie there are photos of Russians waving flags of 'Donetsk Republic' in the mid 2000's). Same with annexation of Crimea - Russia just used the opportunity to execute the plan. Even the execution started before Yanukovich left the country (such as movement of troops, etc). 2. It's not a civil war and the forces in Eastern ukraine are not 'pro-Russian'. They are Russian forces (do lookup its leaders - Girkin, Bezler, Antyufeyev, etc). They are all Russian and are members of various branches of Russian government - FSB, GRU, etc. Your points 2 & 3 i won't even address as they are 'not even wrong'. Any conflict can be described as 'playground for political forces' and 'bad state'. That's why it's a conflict.
    - dspillett 12y ago
      I don't particularly see "blind support" in his last couple of posts. He acknowledged that some don't support the regime as-is, didn't directly state support or not in his own part, and explained part of the situation that stops those people railing against it (the fear of history repeating badly), raising what could be an interesting discussion point if I had time to take that slightly off-topic detour right now. You on the other hand seem to be blindly throwing around assumptions (you can't logically deduce "supports X" from "doesn't make a point of denouncing X") instead of taking the more mature opportunity of delving into the points mentioned.
- ivan_gammel 12y ago
  Looks like people beyond the borders are misinformed about Russian internal politics. Putin is, no doubt, the evil, but the statement about revolutions is true. There's no point in converting ex-nuclear superpower to failed state just because current government sucks. Successful democratic revolution may happen when there are trusted new leaders who can take the power, transform the state and step back on next elections. State of the opposition in Russia is so pathetic, that, despite among these people there are some really smart guys, it won't be able to run the government. We have to wait until we'll see grassroot support for the young generation of politicians with crystal-clean record (Maria Gaidar, Luba Sobol etc) and good organization capable of fighting even on rigged elections. If revolution will overthrow Putin tomorrow, we'll see new NSDAP as a replacement. There's no point in replicating the Arab spring mess now.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    So if a junta is brutal enough and keep the quality of the opposition down (Siberia, assassinations, etc) then you think it is wrong to try to overthrow the dictator?! From 1984 "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." How can things change, then? An invasion is not better than a revolution. Economic pressures work for most countries today (not e.g. North Korea) but not for oil countries -- note that most problem states do live on resource exports (see resource curse).
    - ivan_gammel 12y ago
      I don't think so. I think that people of any country have to look at all existing opportunities. For North Korea, some African or Asian countries there's no point in waiting for good and revolution is the only way for changes. As for Russia (and, possibly, for China), we have the options. The political game is quite dangerous here and political institutions are imperfect but they still may evolve in time to something better. Putin, compared to the dictators in the rest of the world, is very soft and weak: his power is based on popular support and he is well-aware that he has to distribute wealth to the people, boosting economy and imitating western-style democracy. Either he will keep the wealth growing (and thus the country open - it's essential for Russian economy, so millenials will travel and get educated about the benefits of western life style), or the popular discontent will blow him out of Kremlin. We still hope that the first option will be the case. We need more educated people to build reliable and inclusive political system.

by grepz 12y ago

adamnemecek 12y ago

Apparently, Russian shills discovered HN.

grepz 12y ago
I am reading HN for over 1.5 years, not that much, but still. Yes, i've registered account only few hours ago when I understood that by upvoting the article I can save it in my account, so no need for bookmarking anymore. It is sad that you jump to conclusions so fast.
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  Is it sad? Blindly supporting a pseudo-fascist regime seems sadder.
  - grepz 12y ago
    I am not supporting Putin and co. I don't like many things happening at the moment in my country. But if you put revolution on a scale - no thank you.
    - omonra 12y ago
      The fact that you put Syria and Ukraine in the same sentence when describing 'revolutions' shows that you're fairly brain-washed. If not by Channel 1 - then by the paid bloggers that dominate Livejournal top pos list these days.
      - pjc50 12y ago
        Not everyone who disagrees with you on international politics is brainwashed. Edit: no, really, it is possible for someone to reach different conclusions from you without being "brainwashed", paid, deluded, or a sockpuppet. People think differently about the world and are operating from different sets of knowledge and beliefs. And different levels of cynicism about international power politics.
        BugBrother 12y ago
        True -- when the subject is Russia today, there are lots of paid people too. (And if you think it is bad in English, be happy that you don't have to swim through the mangled comments in Swedish. But in the last 2-3 months they have gotten a bunch of people with better Swedish.) Edit: Answer to the Edit. Of course I know that. I ALSO know that few well read people sincerely believe in that the whole world's [democratic] media are in a conspiracy against just Russia and the only truth is in Putin's controlled media. But yes, people do believe in conspiracy theories.
      - grepz 12y ago
        It amaze me how easy people accusing others of being pro-Putin activists and not having independent opinion. Strictly speaking _everyone_ is influenced by what they read and by people they talk to in one way or another. When I put Syria and Ukraine in the same line i mean: 1. I think that what is happening in eastern Ukraine right now is logical consequence of Kiev events. Having a few friends living in Kiev, some of them where on Maidan supporting the revolution and a few friends living in Donbass who supports pro-Russian forces I receive alot of controversial information from both sides. For me it is obvious: it is a civil war right now. Same in Syria. 2. Both countries are playground for major political forces. 3. Both countries are in a really bad state right now.
        omonra 12y ago
        1. False. The events in Eastern Ukraine have been planned by Russia a decade ago (ie there are photos of Russians waving flags of 'Donetsk Republic' in the mid 2000's). Same with annexation of Crimea - Russia just used the opportunity to execute the plan. Even the execution started before Yanukovich left the country (such as movement of troops, etc). 2. It's not a civil war and the forces in Eastern ukraine are not 'pro-Russian'. They are Russian forces (do lookup its leaders - Girkin, Bezler, Antyufeyev, etc). They are all Russian and are members of various branches of Russian government - FSB, GRU, etc. Your points 2 & 3 i won't even address as they are 'not even wrong'. Any conflict can be described as 'playground for political forces' and 'bad state'. That's why it's a conflict.
  - dspillett 12y ago
    I don't particularly see "blind support" in his last couple of posts. He acknowledged that some don't support the regime as-is, didn't directly state support or not in his own part, and explained part of the situation that stops those people railing against it (the fear of history repeating badly), raising what could be an interesting discussion point if I had time to take that slightly off-topic detour right now. You on the other hand seem to be blindly throwing around assumptions (you can't logically deduce "supports X" from "doesn't make a point of denouncing X") instead of taking the more mature opportunity of delving into the points mentioned.
ivan_gammel 12y ago
Looks like people beyond the borders are misinformed about Russian internal politics. Putin is, no doubt, the evil, but the statement about revolutions is true. There's no point in converting ex-nuclear superpower to failed state just because current government sucks. Successful democratic revolution may happen when there are trusted new leaders who can take the power, transform the state and step back on next elections. State of the opposition in Russia is so pathetic, that, despite among these people there are some really smart guys, it won't be able to run the government. We have to wait until we'll see grassroot support for the young generation of politicians with crystal-clean record (Maria Gaidar, Luba Sobol etc) and good organization capable of fighting even on rigged elections. If revolution will overthrow Putin tomorrow, we'll see new NSDAP as a replacement. There's no point in replicating the Arab spring mess now.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  So if a junta is brutal enough and keep the quality of the opposition down (Siberia, assassinations, etc) then you think it is wrong to try to overthrow the dictator?! From 1984 "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." How can things change, then? An invasion is not better than a revolution. Economic pressures work for most countries today (not e.g. North Korea) but not for oil countries -- note that most problem states do live on resource exports (see resource curse).
  - ivan_gammel 12y ago
    I don't think so. I think that people of any country have to look at all existing opportunities. For North Korea, some African or Asian countries there's no point in waiting for good and revolution is the only way for changes. As for Russia (and, possibly, for China), we have the options. The political game is quite dangerous here and political institutions are imperfect but they still may evolve in time to something better. Putin, compared to the dictators in the rest of the world, is very soft and weak: his power is based on popular support and he is well-aware that he has to distribute wealth to the people, boosting economy and imitating western-style democracy. Either he will keep the wealth growing (and thus the country open - it's essential for Russian economy, so millenials will travel and get educated about the benefits of western life style), or the popular discontent will blow him out of Kremlin. We still hope that the first option will be the case. We need more educated people to build reliable and inclusive political system.