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I agree with the main point - that MOOCs work best for students who are self-motivated - but I think you're not giving the average college student enough credit

by malexw 12y ago

I agree with the main point - that MOOCs work best for students who are self-motivated - but I think you're not giving the average college student enough credit. From my experiences as a student in both environments, I think the motivation required to successfully complete a college course is about the same as completing a MOOC. I don't think that an increase in the amount of content delivered online at a college level would increase the failure rates, because the students who aren't self-motivated would fail out anyway.

mgkimsal 12y ago
The fact that you're here discussing this matter indicates that you're not 'average'. You probably don't associate with many 'average' college students.
- malexw 12y ago
  That may be true, but that's not what I was trying to get at. My observation is that the external motivating pressures are the same, whether the material is delivered via traditional instruction or online. In both environments, there are lectures to attend, assignments or essays to hand in, and a final exam to write. I suspect that anyone who has enough motivation to complete that work in a traditional setting would also be able to complete it online.
  - glesica 12y ago
    I strongly disagree. I have three college degrees but my completion rate on MOOCs is hovering around 10% right now. Obviously I'm a sample of one, but I just wanted to give a personal account to match your own. The classroom setting is important because it sets up social expectations and accountability. I tend to blow off MOOCs partly (there are obviously other reasons as well, including the fact that they are free) because there is no scheduled time. There is less pressure and it is up to me to make time, it isn't blocked out for me. I also get bored more easily in MOOCs because the communication only flows in one direction, from the teacher to the student. I can't ask questions or challenge assumptions during lectures. To me, that isn't as interesting, so I'm more likely to drop out.
    - malexw 12y ago
      Interesting! I don't have any college degree - I left in fourth year and joined a startup. I mostly hated college classes. I felt that many instructors either didn't want to be teaching, or weren't very good at it, and didn't work at getting better. Taking a class on a subject I was interested in was a guaranteed way to destroy all my enthusiasm for the topic (with the one exception of a great computer graphics course). I couldn't imagine completing three degrees. My MOOC completion rate is also fairly low. In total I've signed up for 16 MOOCs, and successfully completed 6 of them (with 1 more in progress). I don't consider this a failing of the MOOC style - I actually consider the freedom to drop courses without punishment a great joy compared to my previous college engineering degree program. I've stopped "attending" MOOCs because I didn't like the instructor, or because I didn't enjoy the material, or just because I had too many other things going on to set aside 6 hours a week to work on a course. But what if you had to complete the MOOC in a college environment, where you didn't have the freedom to just stop working on the material without punishment? I agree that having the lecture times blocked out is a motivating factor - I take "classes" at the gym to motivate myself to go every day. But when it comes to assignments, or studying for the final, that's still time you need to set up for yourself. Since you've been so successful at self-motivating yourself to do that already, do you think you'd be able to motivate yourself enough to watch the video lectures in a college setting? Thanks for sharing your data point, even if it's just a small sample size. I'm really enjoying reading about other's experiences.
      - glesica 12y ago
        I actually took a for-credit online class last year and I did rather poorly in it, at least by my normal standards. There were several problems. First, I didn't find the material very interesting (it didn't cover what I thought it was going to cover). But second, and maybe just as important, I just hated watching the video lectures. I had a lot of trouble motivating myself to spend several hours watching lectures, and when I did watch them I often found I got very little out of them because I couldn't ask questions in real time. So, for instance, if I wasn't completely clear on a point in minute 10, I might be lost for the next 40 minutes and my only recourse was to watch the part that confused me over and over again in the hope that it would become clear (which is boring). I think I simply can't learn well from video lectures. When I was in school I was the type of student who would always engage the lecturer. I asked a lot of questions, sometimes when I was confused, sometimes when I wanted more information, and sometimes when I thought I had something to add or wanted to know about some special case. This just doesn't work with video lectures. So I think the answer to your question is that I probably wouldn't do very well in a MOOC, even if there was some kind of consequence behind it. Edit: I do think that MOOCs are a great thing and I hope they stay a part of the "scene", partly because it is nice to have the option (I enjoy participating in them even if I usually don't get very far), but mostly because they seem to "work" for a lot of people, like yourself. More options is good, just don't take away my in-person lectures! :)
sanderjd 12y ago
Thanks for this. At least when I went to college, the explicit difference in style between it and high school was that nobody was going to hold your hand and you would have to take ownership over your own education. And that was my experience of it. Higher education in general works best for the self-motivated.
- tjr 12y ago
  On the other hand, Very few people can learn math on their own; you need a gun at your head in the form of a course... http://www.cs.indiana.edu/mit.research.how.to/section3.5.html http://www.cs.indiana.edu/mit.research.how.to/section3.5.htm... I took way more math courses than my CS degree required just because I wanted to -- so I enjoy math -- but I still benefited from the pressure exerted on me by being in a formal course. I don't believe I would have studied as deeply on my own just with the textbook, nor do I believe I would have studied as deeply with today's MOOCs. I don't know if it was the threat of wasting tuition money, or the concern about getting a bad grade on my transcript, or the camaraderie of my in-person peers, or what, but for some topics I know good and well that the traditional college course helped me stick with learning the material.
  - sanderjd 12y ago
    I guess YMMV. I tend to work harder at MOOCs now than I did at classes in college, making sure I understand derivations of formulas rather than just memorizing the formula for use on a test. I don't really know how my college-aged self would have behaved though. I've also found the for-pay structured certificate-granting aspect of what Coursera calls "specializations" is a decent motivator, along the lines of tuition and grades at college. Definitely, camaraderie (and similar: networking) is a major component of the college experience that is missing (or spoken to in a very token way) from the online experience.

by malexw 12y ago

mgkimsal 12y ago

The fact that you're here discussing this matter indicates that you're not 'average'. You probably don't associate with many 'average' college students.

malexw 12y ago
That may be true, but that's not what I was trying to get at. My observation is that the external motivating pressures are the same, whether the material is delivered via traditional instruction or online. In both environments, there are lectures to attend, assignments or essays to hand in, and a final exam to write. I suspect that anyone who has enough motivation to complete that work in a traditional setting would also be able to complete it online.
- glesica 12y ago
  I strongly disagree. I have three college degrees but my completion rate on MOOCs is hovering around 10% right now. Obviously I'm a sample of one, but I just wanted to give a personal account to match your own. The classroom setting is important because it sets up social expectations and accountability. I tend to blow off MOOCs partly (there are obviously other reasons as well, including the fact that they are free) because there is no scheduled time. There is less pressure and it is up to me to make time, it isn't blocked out for me. I also get bored more easily in MOOCs because the communication only flows in one direction, from the teacher to the student. I can't ask questions or challenge assumptions during lectures. To me, that isn't as interesting, so I'm more likely to drop out.
  - malexw 12y ago
    Interesting! I don't have any college degree - I left in fourth year and joined a startup. I mostly hated college classes. I felt that many instructors either didn't want to be teaching, or weren't very good at it, and didn't work at getting better. Taking a class on a subject I was interested in was a guaranteed way to destroy all my enthusiasm for the topic (with the one exception of a great computer graphics course). I couldn't imagine completing three degrees. My MOOC completion rate is also fairly low. In total I've signed up for 16 MOOCs, and successfully completed 6 of them (with 1 more in progress). I don't consider this a failing of the MOOC style - I actually consider the freedom to drop courses without punishment a great joy compared to my previous college engineering degree program. I've stopped "attending" MOOCs because I didn't like the instructor, or because I didn't enjoy the material, or just because I had too many other things going on to set aside 6 hours a week to work on a course. But what if you had to complete the MOOC in a college environment, where you didn't have the freedom to just stop working on the material without punishment? I agree that having the lecture times blocked out is a motivating factor - I take "classes" at the gym to motivate myself to go every day. But when it comes to assignments, or studying for the final, that's still time you need to set up for yourself. Since you've been so successful at self-motivating yourself to do that already, do you think you'd be able to motivate yourself enough to watch the video lectures in a college setting? Thanks for sharing your data point, even if it's just a small sample size. I'm really enjoying reading about other's experiences.
    - glesica 12y ago
      I actually took a for-credit online class last year and I did rather poorly in it, at least by my normal standards. There were several problems. First, I didn't find the material very interesting (it didn't cover what I thought it was going to cover). But second, and maybe just as important, I just hated watching the video lectures. I had a lot of trouble motivating myself to spend several hours watching lectures, and when I did watch them I often found I got very little out of them because I couldn't ask questions in real time. So, for instance, if I wasn't completely clear on a point in minute 10, I might be lost for the next 40 minutes and my only recourse was to watch the part that confused me over and over again in the hope that it would become clear (which is boring). I think I simply can't learn well from video lectures. When I was in school I was the type of student who would always engage the lecturer. I asked a lot of questions, sometimes when I was confused, sometimes when I wanted more information, and sometimes when I thought I had something to add or wanted to know about some special case. This just doesn't work with video lectures. So I think the answer to your question is that I probably wouldn't do very well in a MOOC, even if there was some kind of consequence behind it. Edit: I do think that MOOCs are a great thing and I hope they stay a part of the "scene", partly because it is nice to have the option (I enjoy participating in them even if I usually don't get very far), but mostly because they seem to "work" for a lot of people, like yourself. More options is good, just don't take away my in-person lectures! :)

sanderjd 12y ago

Thanks for this. At least when I went to college, the explicit difference in style between it and high school was that nobody was going to hold your hand and you would have to take ownership over your own education. And that was my experience of it. Higher education in general works best for the self-motivated.

tjr 12y ago
On the other hand, Very few people can learn math on their own; you need a gun at your head in the form of a course... http://www.cs.indiana.edu/mit.research.how.to/section3.5.html http://www.cs.indiana.edu/mit.research.how.to/section3.5.htm... I took way more math courses than my CS degree required just because I wanted to -- so I enjoy math -- but I still benefited from the pressure exerted on me by being in a formal course. I don't believe I would have studied as deeply on my own just with the textbook, nor do I believe I would have studied as deeply with today's MOOCs. I don't know if it was the threat of wasting tuition money, or the concern about getting a bad grade on my transcript, or the camaraderie of my in-person peers, or what, but for some topics I know good and well that the traditional college course helped me stick with learning the material.
- sanderjd 12y ago
  I guess YMMV. I tend to work harder at MOOCs now than I did at classes in college, making sure I understand derivations of formulas rather than just memorizing the formula for use on a test. I don't really know how my college-aged self would have behaved though. I've also found the for-pay structured certificate-granting aspect of what Coursera calls "specializations" is a decent motivator, along the lines of tuition and grades at college. Definitely, camaraderie (and similar: networking) is a major component of the college experience that is missing (or spoken to in a very token way) from the online experience.