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I wonder how this compares to Sketch? There seem to be a bunch of Mac-only vector apps coming out in recent years.. Not just these direct Illustrator competi

by sbarre 12y ago

I wonder how this compares to Sketch? There seem to be a bunch of Mac-only vector apps coming out in recent years.. Not just these direct Illustrator competitors, but HTML5 animation tools too like Hype, Paintcode, etc.. that provide vector drawing and animation tools, and are coming from small teams and cost very little (relatively speaking)... Is this because there are more powerful native components in OS X that make it easy/easier to build this kind of application now? Or did the whole Adobe thing just reach a critical mass of disgruntled-ness and this is the result?

radley 12y ago
It's Adobe. Illustrator is buggy and inaccurate with UI flaws that have existed for years. Plus the subscription model really messed with pro indies who paid for CS. We're looking for a big change ASAP. Really interested to see if this works. Most indie vector apps have not been ready for production use.
- radley 12y ago
  It won't open .ai files, even thought the home page says "Full support for AI". I had to look in the forums and found an apology. Since they're not playing straight, here's the direct download so you don't have to give them your personal info: https://affinity.serif.com/beta-download/ https://affinity.serif.com/beta-download/
  - MattP_Affinity 12y ago
    I understand your sentiment, but to be fair, the released product will have everything the website says it will. You're testing a beta version that may have any number of things missing at this point, so please don't judge too harshly as 'not playing straight'. I could've included the current state of the AI/PDF import in the version you have - but it isn't ready yet, so instead of 'it doesn't import AI files' the comments would be 'AI files don't import properly' or 'why doesn't this attribute work?' because people may assume it's finished. The personal info we ask for is nothing except an email address and your name so that we can send out updates about new betas - complete with an unsubscribe link. This is a work-in-progress and it is very quickly evolving :)
    - radley 12y ago
      Why not just say EPS on your home page instead of AI or PDF?
      - MattP_Affinity 12y ago
        AI and PDF compatibility will both be present in the product we launch with - which is what the website is trying to describe to interested potential users. The beta will also get these features very soon, so I don't see the problem? We can't expect users to keep checking back on the website to see if we've added any new features that we always knew were going to be in the finished product but hadn't listed, just because they weren't finished yet, surely?
        jpgvm 12y ago
        To be fair this is HackerNews. It's a sales site, deep down we understand why you did what you did and why you say what you say. We have all done it in the past. But there is always that dick that wants to pick a bone. Don't worry about it. Though I would probably try be abit more upfront about the beta and the limitations of the beta at the download phase. After you have collected email addresses etc just let the user know this is indeed beta software and it's missing x, y and z. Considering your early adopters are going to be more adventurous.. then it might make sense to post detailed release notes. This serves a double purpose. It means you are upfront with your current users (likely to be your first paid customers) and it sets the tone for open communication. Said tone is awfully important. It's the difference between "I'll report this bug and it will probably be fixed 2 weeks from now" and "F$#k it, these guys don't give a sh*t". Not to say the latter will necessarily happen but only that tone counts for alot when you are selling a tool that peoples livelihood may very well depend upon. Best of luck anyways. I love working with graphics on the Mac and think your product is a welcome addition.
- egypturnash 12y ago
  I think a lot of 'not ready for production use' is that Illustrator is a huge program that's old enough to vote with a zillion features, and pretty much every little feature is a dealbreaker for SOMEONE. That said hey I'm certainly willing to give this one a try and drop some notes on them as to what my particular dealbreakers turn out to be. I'm betting it'll lack global color swatches, I've never seen anything besides AI do those and I love it.
armandososa 12y ago
In my humble opinion, as a 20 year user of vector software, Sketch sucks for drawing. It has very interesting features, mostly for UI/UX design work, but drawing anything mildly complicated is a nightmare. I'm excited to try Affinity (later today, whenever I have a chance) because their example drawings look very complicated and nuanced. …But maybe I am not a judge of good vector creative tools because I love Corel Draw and I miss it so very much since I switched to Mac.
- Tloewald 12y ago
  Sketch is a bit nasty for freehand drawing. I'm very much not a Corel Draw fan, but loved Freehand when it was still around. Illustrator still lags Freehand of ten years ago in a lot of respects. Affinity looks very promising.
  - TheZenPsycho 12y ago
    Interesting. What did freehand have that illustrator does not?
    - armandososa 12y ago
      I'm not the guy you're replying to, but from my experience I think it is less a matter of features and more about different ways of doing the same thing. Basic stuff as how selection works (will the selection marquee select only the encompassing objects, every object it touches or a fragment of the object?) is very important when you are spending hours a day with a tool.
    - AnthonBerg 12y ago
      The bezigon tool for one, a more sensible and thought-out feel and flow, lots of small features that Just Worked. It's been a while so I can't comment further, but Freehand was a far better tool for me. Illustrator is more of a hodgepodge / mishmash / design-by-committee thing somehow.
    - Tloewald 12y ago
      It could fit text to a region, transforms didn't require specific tools, it handled opacity properly, its bezier-editing tools were more refined, and a bunch of other things I'm probably forgetting. Illustrator today has far more functionality (largely borrowed from Photoshop) than Freehand did, but Freehand had better core functionality than Illustrator (and it also introduced many of the features now in Illustrator, e.g. booleans). Actually, if you're curious, just google freehand vs. illustrator -- it's pretty depressing how they compare despite freehand being 10 years old. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8CKjsYS9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8CKjsYS9k
egypturnash 12y ago
I think a lot of it is that Adobe's UIs have gotten so relentlessly fucked-up. They have their own cross-platform UI toolkit that always feels just a little wrong. And they keep on making things worse; the latest release of AI, for instance, has a truly horrible new font dropdown menu due to their desire to integrate a 'buy fonts on Typekit' button into what once worked quickly and elegantly.
- gulpahum 12y ago
  I know that Mac users are very sensitive towards all cross-platform and non-native UI toolkits. I have always wondered why I haven't seen many complaints about the Adobe non-native UI on Mac. So, its interesting to hear that it does feel a bit wrong.
  - actionscripted 12y ago
    I like the ability to darken or lighten the UI but I absolutely hate working with their non-native, wildly inconsistent UI. And I hate the rounded corners options in the size panel now.
  - jkestner 12y ago
    Oh, the complaints are there. You should follow http://adobegripes.tumblr.com http://adobegripes.tumblr.com
  - egypturnash 12y ago
    It's been like six years, we're all just kinda resigned to it. It's not a healthy relationship.
tumultco 12y ago
One of the founders of Tumult Hype here -- When we started out Adobe was still sticking to their Flash guns. As HTML5 was the only method to make animated web content on iOS, it was clear someone needed to make tools aimed at graphic designers, so we decided that someone should be us! Luckily with no other competing apps around, we didn't have to deal with an uphill battle on feature parity unlike these vector editors do with Illustrator. So I wouldn't say we were disgruntled, just trying to fill in a hole. And, on a personal note I had a need for such a tool for a side project I was working on. OS X is a great platform to develop for generally speaking. We naturally leverage WebKit, and Quartz and CoreImage frameworks I'm sure do a lot of heavy lifting for the vector-based tools. Also keep in mind a larger percent of graphic pros use a Mac than the general population, so if you're building a tool it is a safe bet to start on the Mac.
- sbarre 12y ago
  Thanks for the detailed answer.. Also, Hype is awesome. :-)
  - tumultco 12y ago
    Thanks!! :)
- jpgvm 12y ago
  Hype is awesome. I do wonder though, how many people do you get asking for you to support Windows? I know alot of Adobe shops that adopted Windows in previous years so I am just curious what the numbers are like.
  - tumultco 12y ago
    Thanks! We get maybe 2-3 requests a week for Hype on Windows. My napkin math estimates of potential customers (those that don't write in or saw our FAQ, and then would go on to buy) shows this might lead to lower double-digit percent income coming from a Windows port. This roughly corresponds with our site traffic, which is 18% Windows users. My general thought is (at this time) we’d do better to develop enticing new features to expand our user base than doing a Windows/web port.
adrianhoward 12y ago
"I wonder how this compares to Sketch?" Sketch is focussed on UI designers. Affinity is focussed on illustrators. Different markets, with some overlap. In many ways, within the Adobe suite, Sketch is closer to Fireworks than Illustrator. I think part of the reason you're seeing a bit of an explosion in apps, in addition to the general digruntled-ness with Adobe, is that Illustrator is one of those apps that is serving many different markets — not all of them well.

by sbarre 12y ago

radley 12y ago

It's Adobe. Illustrator is buggy and inaccurate with UI flaws that have existed for years. Plus the subscription model really messed with pro indies who paid for CS. We're looking for a big change ASAP. Really interested to see if this works. Most indie vector apps have not been ready for production use.

radley 12y ago
It won't open .ai files, even thought the home page says "Full support for AI". I had to look in the forums and found an apology. Since they're not playing straight, here's the direct download so you don't have to give them your personal info: https://affinity.serif.com/beta-download/ https://affinity.serif.com/beta-download/
- MattP_Affinity 12y ago
  I understand your sentiment, but to be fair, the released product will have everything the website says it will. You're testing a beta version that may have any number of things missing at this point, so please don't judge too harshly as 'not playing straight'. I could've included the current state of the AI/PDF import in the version you have - but it isn't ready yet, so instead of 'it doesn't import AI files' the comments would be 'AI files don't import properly' or 'why doesn't this attribute work?' because people may assume it's finished. The personal info we ask for is nothing except an email address and your name so that we can send out updates about new betas - complete with an unsubscribe link. This is a work-in-progress and it is very quickly evolving :)
  - radley 12y ago
    Why not just say EPS on your home page instead of AI or PDF?
    - MattP_Affinity 12y ago
      AI and PDF compatibility will both be present in the product we launch with - which is what the website is trying to describe to interested potential users. The beta will also get these features very soon, so I don't see the problem? We can't expect users to keep checking back on the website to see if we've added any new features that we always knew were going to be in the finished product but hadn't listed, just because they weren't finished yet, surely?
      - jpgvm 12y ago
        To be fair this is HackerNews. It's a sales site, deep down we understand why you did what you did and why you say what you say. We have all done it in the past. But there is always that dick that wants to pick a bone. Don't worry about it. Though I would probably try be abit more upfront about the beta and the limitations of the beta at the download phase. After you have collected email addresses etc just let the user know this is indeed beta software and it's missing x, y and z. Considering your early adopters are going to be more adventurous.. then it might make sense to post detailed release notes. This serves a double purpose. It means you are upfront with your current users (likely to be your first paid customers) and it sets the tone for open communication. Said tone is awfully important. It's the difference between "I'll report this bug and it will probably be fixed 2 weeks from now" and "F$#k it, these guys don't give a sh*t". Not to say the latter will necessarily happen but only that tone counts for alot when you are selling a tool that peoples livelihood may very well depend upon. Best of luck anyways. I love working with graphics on the Mac and think your product is a welcome addition.
egypturnash 12y ago
I think a lot of 'not ready for production use' is that Illustrator is a huge program that's old enough to vote with a zillion features, and pretty much every little feature is a dealbreaker for SOMEONE. That said hey I'm certainly willing to give this one a try and drop some notes on them as to what my particular dealbreakers turn out to be. I'm betting it'll lack global color swatches, I've never seen anything besides AI do those and I love it.

armandososa 12y ago

In my humble opinion, as a 20 year user of vector software, Sketch sucks for drawing. It has very interesting features, mostly for UI/UX design work, but drawing anything mildly complicated is a nightmare. I'm excited to try Affinity (later today, whenever I have a chance) because their example drawings look very complicated and nuanced. …But maybe I am not a judge of good vector creative tools because I love Corel Draw and I miss it so very much since I switched to Mac.

Tloewald 12y ago
Sketch is a bit nasty for freehand drawing. I'm very much not a Corel Draw fan, but loved Freehand when it was still around. Illustrator still lags Freehand of ten years ago in a lot of respects. Affinity looks very promising.
- TheZenPsycho 12y ago
  Interesting. What did freehand have that illustrator does not?
  - armandososa 12y ago
    I'm not the guy you're replying to, but from my experience I think it is less a matter of features and more about different ways of doing the same thing. Basic stuff as how selection works (will the selection marquee select only the encompassing objects, every object it touches or a fragment of the object?) is very important when you are spending hours a day with a tool.
  - AnthonBerg 12y ago
    The bezigon tool for one, a more sensible and thought-out feel and flow, lots of small features that Just Worked. It's been a while so I can't comment further, but Freehand was a far better tool for me. Illustrator is more of a hodgepodge / mishmash / design-by-committee thing somehow.
  - Tloewald 12y ago
    It could fit text to a region, transforms didn't require specific tools, it handled opacity properly, its bezier-editing tools were more refined, and a bunch of other things I'm probably forgetting. Illustrator today has far more functionality (largely borrowed from Photoshop) than Freehand did, but Freehand had better core functionality than Illustrator (and it also introduced many of the features now in Illustrator, e.g. booleans). Actually, if you're curious, just google freehand vs. illustrator -- it's pretty depressing how they compare despite freehand being 10 years old. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8CKjsYS9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8CKjsYS9k

egypturnash 12y ago

I think a lot of it is that Adobe's UIs have gotten so relentlessly fucked-up. They have their own cross-platform UI toolkit that always feels just a little wrong. And they keep on making things worse; the latest release of AI, for instance, has a truly horrible new font dropdown menu due to their desire to integrate a 'buy fonts on Typekit' button into what once worked quickly and elegantly.

gulpahum 12y ago
I know that Mac users are very sensitive towards all cross-platform and non-native UI toolkits. I have always wondered why I haven't seen many complaints about the Adobe non-native UI on Mac. So, its interesting to hear that it does feel a bit wrong.
- actionscripted 12y ago
  I like the ability to darken or lighten the UI but I absolutely hate working with their non-native, wildly inconsistent UI. And I hate the rounded corners options in the size panel now.
- jkestner 12y ago
  Oh, the complaints are there. You should follow http://adobegripes.tumblr.com http://adobegripes.tumblr.com
- egypturnash 12y ago
  It's been like six years, we're all just kinda resigned to it. It's not a healthy relationship.

tumultco 12y ago

One of the founders of Tumult Hype here -- When we started out Adobe was still sticking to their Flash guns. As HTML5 was the only method to make animated web content on iOS, it was clear someone needed to make tools aimed at graphic designers, so we decided that someone should be us! Luckily with no other competing apps around, we didn't have to deal with an uphill battle on feature parity unlike these vector editors do with Illustrator. So I wouldn't say we were disgruntled, just trying to fill in a hole. And, on a personal note I had a need for such a tool for a side project I was working on. OS X is a great platform to develop for generally speaking. We naturally leverage WebKit, and Quartz and CoreImage frameworks I'm sure do a lot of heavy lifting for the vector-based tools. Also keep in mind a larger percent of graphic pros use a Mac than the general population, so if you're building a tool it is a safe bet to start on the Mac.

sbarre 12y ago
Thanks for the detailed answer.. Also, Hype is awesome. :-)
- tumultco 12y ago
  Thanks!! :)
jpgvm 12y ago
Hype is awesome. I do wonder though, how many people do you get asking for you to support Windows? I know alot of Adobe shops that adopted Windows in previous years so I am just curious what the numbers are like.
- tumultco 12y ago
  Thanks! We get maybe 2-3 requests a week for Hype on Windows. My napkin math estimates of potential customers (those that don't write in or saw our FAQ, and then would go on to buy) shows this might lead to lower double-digit percent income coming from a Windows port. This roughly corresponds with our site traffic, which is 18% Windows users. My general thought is (at this time) we’d do better to develop enticing new features to expand our user base than doing a Windows/web port.

adrianhoward 12y ago

"I wonder how this compares to Sketch?" Sketch is focussed on UI designers. Affinity is focussed on illustrators. Different markets, with some overlap. In many ways, within the Adobe suite, Sketch is closer to Fireworks than Illustrator. I think part of the reason you're seeing a bit of an explosion in apps, in addition to the general digruntled-ness with Adobe, is that Illustrator is one of those apps that is serving many different markets — not all of them well.