5 ms·

Well, he fought with half science: he came up with a set of testable hypotheses, but didn't actually run any of the tests. I guess that's as scientific as cosmo

Well, he fought with half science: he came up with a set of testable hypotheses, but didn't actually run any of the tests. I guess that's as scientific as cosmology :-)

thrownaway2424 12y ago
It's not even half science, it's just a big slide deck of FUD padded with a healthy amount of entitlement.
- chiph 12y ago
  Be honest with yourself: If you got a ticket where the indicated speed was massively different than the speed you were actually travelling, you'd fight it too. And you might do some research into the validity of the reading, as well. You'd especially do it in a state where the law says "x" mph over the limit and your license may get suspended (meaning you walk for 60 days). It'd be worth fighting for.
  - gknoy 12y ago
    Especially if it were in a residential area where you had been deliberately careful. If I got a ticket saying that I'd been driving 40 in a 25 zone, when I had been carefully watching my spedometer at ~20s, I'd feel pretty wronged. I'm not sure I'd have the resources to fight it, but I would certainly want to.
- Estragon 12y ago
  Can you cite some parts which reflect entitlement?
- smackfu 12y ago
  FUD, eh? So that's Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. I don't really see any fear, and I hope that any legal defense is going to push pretty heavily on uncertainty and doubt. Don't quite see the problem.
joncrocks 12y ago
I think all he way trying to say that there are ways that a LIDAR gun could give a false reading, and there's no current incentive for law enforcement/manufacturers to ensure accuracy. In fact there's an incentive for both the manufacturer to emphasise accuracy based on successful prosecutions, and for police to emphasise accuracy to prevent large-scale contesting of tickets. They are used for law-enforcement, but presumably aren't available for public scrutiny, especially around 'proprietary' algorithms. As mentioned, they can get firmware updates that change behaviour, yet that doesn't make it out into "does this mean it was mis-behaving before, therefore I should dismiss tickets issued in situation X". It's similar in some ways to vote counting machines. If they are used in public elections, then the inner workings should be available for introspection to ensure correctness.
- darksim905 12y ago
  Where are you people getting your information that they aren't available for public scrutiny? Has no one ever heard of Guys of LIDAR? http://www.guysoflidar.com/ http://www.guysoflidar.com/ Granted, they can't dump the firmware these devices use but they are very telling in what these detectors can pick up, can't, real world examples, and so on.
  - gknoy 12y ago
    What stops them from dumping the firmware? Technical or legal limitations?
    - darksim905 12y ago
      I've wondered this too & I've reached out to them several times to no avail so either it's dead, they stopped doing it, or something happened. I'm trying to see if I can get a hold of a cop friend or two to see what the options are to legally acquire said LIDAR guns for tests. It would be a really cool project, even in the short hand.
  - joncrocks 12y ago
    I hadn't realised they were commercially available as well. No I hadn't heard of guys of LIDAR, good to know there's someone out there fighting for the little guy.
goodcanadian 12y ago
He doesn't have to prove his innocence, he just has to convince a judge that there is reason to doubt that the LIDAR accurately reported his speed.

Well, he fought with half science: he came up with a set of testable hypotheses, but didn't actually run any of the tests. I guess that's as scientific as cosmology :-)

thrownaway2424 12y ago

It's not even half science, it's just a big slide deck of FUD padded with a healthy amount of entitlement.

chiph 12y ago
Be honest with yourself: If you got a ticket where the indicated speed was massively different than the speed you were actually travelling, you'd fight it too. And you might do some research into the validity of the reading, as well. You'd especially do it in a state where the law says "x" mph over the limit and your license may get suspended (meaning you walk for 60 days). It'd be worth fighting for.
- gknoy 12y ago
  Especially if it were in a residential area where you had been deliberately careful. If I got a ticket saying that I'd been driving 40 in a 25 zone, when I had been carefully watching my spedometer at ~20s, I'd feel pretty wronged. I'm not sure I'd have the resources to fight it, but I would certainly want to.
Estragon 12y ago
Can you cite some parts which reflect entitlement?
smackfu 12y ago
FUD, eh? So that's Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. I don't really see any fear, and I hope that any legal defense is going to push pretty heavily on uncertainty and doubt. Don't quite see the problem.

joncrocks 12y ago

I think all he way trying to say that there are ways that a LIDAR gun could give a false reading, and there's no current incentive for law enforcement/manufacturers to ensure accuracy. In fact there's an incentive for both the manufacturer to emphasise accuracy based on successful prosecutions, and for police to emphasise accuracy to prevent large-scale contesting of tickets. They are used for law-enforcement, but presumably aren't available for public scrutiny, especially around 'proprietary' algorithms. As mentioned, they can get firmware updates that change behaviour, yet that doesn't make it out into "does this mean it was mis-behaving before, therefore I should dismiss tickets issued in situation X". It's similar in some ways to vote counting machines. If they are used in public elections, then the inner workings should be available for introspection to ensure correctness.

darksim905 12y ago
Where are you people getting your information that they aren't available for public scrutiny? Has no one ever heard of Guys of LIDAR? http://www.guysoflidar.com/ http://www.guysoflidar.com/ Granted, they can't dump the firmware these devices use but they are very telling in what these detectors can pick up, can't, real world examples, and so on.
- gknoy 12y ago
  What stops them from dumping the firmware? Technical or legal limitations?
  - darksim905 12y ago
    I've wondered this too & I've reached out to them several times to no avail so either it's dead, they stopped doing it, or something happened. I'm trying to see if I can get a hold of a cop friend or two to see what the options are to legally acquire said LIDAR guns for tests. It would be a really cool project, even in the short hand.
- joncrocks 12y ago
  I hadn't realised they were commercially available as well. No I hadn't heard of guys of LIDAR, good to know there's someone out there fighting for the little guy.

goodcanadian 12y ago

He doesn't have to prove his innocence, he just has to convince a judge that there is reason to doubt that the LIDAR accurately reported his speed.