5 ms·

Developing a Process for Visualizing the Insanity

31 points by lsternlicht 17y ago

mcantelon 17y ago
It would be nice if the author applied his design and writing skills to something more interesting than destroying as much of the ozone layer as possible in a month (or is there some valuable aspect of his project that I'm missing?).
- sp332 17y ago
  He's not causing the planes to fly, he's just taking advantage of them. Better to make sure that ozone layer didn't die for nothing :)
  - mcantelon 17y ago
    Passengers are weight. Carrying weight requires fuel. Given how lucky we are in the west to have the resources we do it would be nice if we tried to use them responsibly.
- edw519 17y ago
  Already beaten to death. You can catch up here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782418 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782418
- kyro 17y ago
  It'd also be just as nice for you to apply your commenting skills strictly to pen and paper instead of using your monitor, computer, and internet to waste energy by the second. But even then, you'll be destroying the forests if you used pen and paper. Seems like any option you take will ultimately result in some sort of pollution/destruction of the environment. It's best that you just stand still and breathe - ah nope, never mind - that's CO2 production. Point is, he's not actively destroying the ozone layer and almost everything we do, from daily tasks to journeys like these, comes at some cost.
  - mcantelon 17y ago
    I see. Because everyday activities have some effect on the ozone layer, a month of constant, pointless, unneccessary flying - an activity that is widely known to have a large impact on the ozone layer - is okay. Got it.
    - ekanes 17y ago
      You're right to point out that this activity has a reasonably high environmental cost, but the value of this idea is in its RELATIVE merits. Will they do something interesting/worthy/influential/etc enough to merit the cost. As a practical example of this trade-off, imagine the cost of creating a documentary film. The environment might be hurt by driving all over, or flying a film crew around. But was it worth it? Depends on the film. Let them make their "film" before you're a critic. :)
      - mcantelon 17y ago
        That's a valid comparison and an interesting point. If the premise of their "film" was about something interesting or valuable I might lean towards thinking that the cost could be worth it. However the only premise I can see is a showcasing of web 2.0 documentation as a medium. I don't see why a month of constant, needless flying is needed to for this premise. Documenting a bicycle trip using web 2.0 techniques, for example, would be a similar project without the subtext of needless consumption.
    - sangaya 17y ago
      I don't view their plan as pointless at all. Attempting to document an "average" airline passenger is an interesting social exercise I look forward to reading about. I've recently flown to Germany and Japan from the USA and met extraordinary people along the way. Also, the added effect to our planet by having a plane that's going to fly regardless carry 2 additional people (plus the weight of their luggage) is minuscule at worst. I suggest a reading of "The World Without Us" by Alan Weisman for a look at just how durable our planet is. (http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/0312427905/ http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/03124...)
- electronslave 17y ago
  As I said the last time this came up, if a seat isn't filled on an outbound flight, it just makes more room for cargo.
  - mcantelon 17y ago
    Less total weight carried, across the system as a whole, would result in less fuel consumption.
    - electronslave 17y ago
      I refer you to my previous post on this topic: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=801001 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=801001
      - mcantelon 17y ago
        I read your post and, while it makes some good points, nothing in it contradicts my statement.
        electronslave 17y ago
        You didn't read it. I'm arguing for a more complex model, rather than an idealistic one. "Less total weight carried, across the system as a whole, would result in less fuel consumption." While this is correct from very simple standpoint, what are you really saying? "The system carries n amount of weight." Okay, I can accept that. "The system carries less weight if one person does not fly." True, but that one person's weight is offset on the specific flight in question by cargo. For a very large value of n, n-200 = n. An airplane takes a massive amount of fuel to accelerate to rotation speed (it's not just pushing you and cargo, it's also shoving vast quantities of aluminum, steel, plastic and fuel.) The empty weight of a 747-400 (the industry standard) is 400,000 lbs., of which 200 is no factor. If that empty plane takes off, it will use 100 times the body weight of a human being in fuel during takeoff operations alone and continue to burn as much during each hour of cruise flight. Adding humans decreases range. Adding cargo decreases range. Fuel will be burned. Your statement assumes a very simple model of "if I don't get on that plane, I'm saving the environment." The actual model is "if at least 200 people don't get on that plane, a seasonally-appropriate ~15 minute delay will happen until cargo can be loaded." I feel, therefore, that I have contradicted your statement quite soundly. I assure you that I have no interest in representing myself as an environment-hating industry apologist.
- minsight 17y ago
  You had better be posting this from a computer powered by a stationary bike and an attached generator.
  - mcantelon 17y ago
    My workstation runs off a hydroelectric power grid.
    - davidw 17y ago
      Those are often bad for salmon and other wildlife.
      - mcantelon 17y ago
        It's not a perfect method of generating electricity, but probably the cleanest of mainstream electricity techniques, with technology like fish ladders mitigating the disruption to wildlife. I look forward to the increased adoption of cleaner alternatives.
edw519 17y ago
I don't remember if you guys already did this, but would you mind posting your itinerary with exact dates and cities? Preferably in this thread or with a link. Dinner and drinks on me, maybe even a place to crash if we're in the same place at the same time. I imagine other hackers would do the same if they knew.
- dcurtis 17y ago
  We only settled on the final itinerary this morning, and we'll post it soon. I think we have overnight stays in Ft Lauderdale, Denver, Chicago, Long Beach, San Francisco, and Burlington, VT (tonight). Most of the flights leave the early the next day at 6:00am though, so they're not much of "stays".
tolmasky 17y ago
I'm actually quite looking forward to reading this thing, great design btw.
AGorilla 17y ago
Did JetBlue's CEO meet with you today?
jack7890 17y ago
I think Dustin is a supremely talented designer, and I find his writing generally engaging, but remain perplexed by how everything he posts, no matter how mundane, flies to the top of HN.
- mrlebowski 17y ago
  yes, he's got good PR here ;-D from comments on some of my previous comments, I'd suggest flagging any posts that you do not like :) Pasting here for convenience - (by robg) Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.) http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - jack7890 17y ago
    Duly noted, thanks. I don't think this is flag-worthy; I mildly enjoyed it. I'm just curious why his posts do so extraordinarily well here.
- alabut 17y ago
  It's probably a combo of the fact that he's YC alum, his articles are also an experiment in art directing every single individual post, plus you don't find a lot of designers that exhibit the hacker mentality of tinkering with stuff in public to see how it works. As a designer, the natural instinct is to wait until something is fully baked and say "ta da! look how pretty this is!" rather than show a work in progress. That's what makes Mark Boulton's Drupal work so interesting as well: http://www.d7ux.org/ http://www.d7ux.org/
- lsternlicht 17y ago
  Most of his articles are great examples of web design that greatly enhance a reader's experience. I think that the importance of good design is often overlooked. I've always admired the design of YC startups, which I believe has made for more enjoyable experiences. After all, design is one of the three things YC mentions. "How do we choose who to fund? The people in your group are what matter most to us. We look for brains, motivation, and a sense of design. Experience is helpful but not critical."
yef 17y ago
Um, OK, but that first timeline doesn't tell me where they started from. A map would be nice, too. Maybe some charts indicating how much time is spent on the ground vs. in the air.

31 points by lsternlicht 17y ago

It would be nice if the author applied his design and writing skills to something more interesting than destroying as much of the ozone layer as possible in a month (or is there some valuable aspect of his project that I'm missing?).

sp332 17y ago
He's not causing the planes to fly, he's just taking advantage of them. Better to make sure that ozone layer didn't die for nothing :)
- mcantelon 17y ago
  Passengers are weight. Carrying weight requires fuel. Given how lucky we are in the west to have the resources we do it would be nice if we tried to use them responsibly.
edw519 17y ago
Already beaten to death. You can catch up here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782418 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=782418
kyro 17y ago
It'd also be just as nice for you to apply your commenting skills strictly to pen and paper instead of using your monitor, computer, and internet to waste energy by the second. But even then, you'll be destroying the forests if you used pen and paper. Seems like any option you take will ultimately result in some sort of pollution/destruction of the environment. It's best that you just stand still and breathe - ah nope, never mind - that's CO2 production. Point is, he's not actively destroying the ozone layer and almost everything we do, from daily tasks to journeys like these, comes at some cost.
- mcantelon 17y ago
  I see. Because everyday activities have some effect on the ozone layer, a month of constant, pointless, unneccessary flying - an activity that is widely known to have a large impact on the ozone layer - is okay. Got it.
  - ekanes 17y ago
    You're right to point out that this activity has a reasonably high environmental cost, but the value of this idea is in its RELATIVE merits. Will they do something interesting/worthy/influential/etc enough to merit the cost. As a practical example of this trade-off, imagine the cost of creating a documentary film. The environment might be hurt by driving all over, or flying a film crew around. But was it worth it? Depends on the film. Let them make their "film" before you're a critic. :)
    - mcantelon 17y ago
      That's a valid comparison and an interesting point. If the premise of their "film" was about something interesting or valuable I might lean towards thinking that the cost could be worth it. However the only premise I can see is a showcasing of web 2.0 documentation as a medium. I don't see why a month of constant, needless flying is needed to for this premise. Documenting a bicycle trip using web 2.0 techniques, for example, would be a similar project without the subtext of needless consumption.
  - sangaya 17y ago
    I don't view their plan as pointless at all. Attempting to document an "average" airline passenger is an interesting social exercise I look forward to reading about. I've recently flown to Germany and Japan from the USA and met extraordinary people along the way. Also, the added effect to our planet by having a plane that's going to fly regardless carry 2 additional people (plus the weight of their luggage) is minuscule at worst. I suggest a reading of "The World Without Us" by Alan Weisman for a look at just how durable our planet is. (http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/0312427905/ http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/03124...)
electronslave 17y ago
As I said the last time this came up, if a seat isn't filled on an outbound flight, it just makes more room for cargo.
- mcantelon 17y ago
  Less total weight carried, across the system as a whole, would result in less fuel consumption.
  - electronslave 17y ago
    I refer you to my previous post on this topic: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=801001 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=801001
    - mcantelon 17y ago
      I read your post and, while it makes some good points, nothing in it contradicts my statement.
      - electronslave 17y ago
        You didn't read it. I'm arguing for a more complex model, rather than an idealistic one. "Less total weight carried, across the system as a whole, would result in less fuel consumption." While this is correct from very simple standpoint, what are you really saying? "The system carries n amount of weight." Okay, I can accept that. "The system carries less weight if one person does not fly." True, but that one person's weight is offset on the specific flight in question by cargo. For a very large value of n, n-200 = n. An airplane takes a massive amount of fuel to accelerate to rotation speed (it's not just pushing you and cargo, it's also shoving vast quantities of aluminum, steel, plastic and fuel.) The empty weight of a 747-400 (the industry standard) is 400,000 lbs., of which 200 is no factor. If that empty plane takes off, it will use 100 times the body weight of a human being in fuel during takeoff operations alone and continue to burn as much during each hour of cruise flight. Adding humans decreases range. Adding cargo decreases range. Fuel will be burned. Your statement assumes a very simple model of "if I don't get on that plane, I'm saving the environment." The actual model is "if at least 200 people don't get on that plane, a seasonally-appropriate ~15 minute delay will happen until cargo can be loaded." I feel, therefore, that I have contradicted your statement quite soundly. I assure you that I have no interest in representing myself as an environment-hating industry apologist.
minsight 17y ago
You had better be posting this from a computer powered by a stationary bike and an attached generator.
- mcantelon 17y ago
  My workstation runs off a hydroelectric power grid.
  - davidw 17y ago
    Those are often bad for salmon and other wildlife.
    - mcantelon 17y ago
      It's not a perfect method of generating electricity, but probably the cleanest of mainstream electricity techniques, with technology like fish ladders mitigating the disruption to wildlife. I look forward to the increased adoption of cleaner alternatives.

edw519 17y ago

I don't remember if you guys already did this, but would you mind posting your itinerary with exact dates and cities? Preferably in this thread or with a link. Dinner and drinks on me, maybe even a place to crash if we're in the same place at the same time. I imagine other hackers would do the same if they knew.

dcurtis 17y ago
We only settled on the final itinerary this morning, and we'll post it soon. I think we have overnight stays in Ft Lauderdale, Denver, Chicago, Long Beach, San Francisco, and Burlington, VT (tonight). Most of the flights leave the early the next day at 6:00am though, so they're not much of "stays".

tolmasky 17y ago

I'm actually quite looking forward to reading this thing, great design btw.

AGorilla 17y ago

Did JetBlue's CEO meet with you today?

jack7890 17y ago

I think Dustin is a supremely talented designer, and I find his writing generally engaging, but remain perplexed by how everything he posts, no matter how mundane, flies to the top of HN.

mrlebowski 17y ago
yes, he's got good PR here ;-D from comments on some of my previous comments, I'd suggest flagging any posts that you do not like :) Pasting here for convenience - (by robg) Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.) http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jack7890 17y ago
  Duly noted, thanks. I don't think this is flag-worthy; I mildly enjoyed it. I'm just curious why his posts do so extraordinarily well here.
alabut 17y ago
It's probably a combo of the fact that he's YC alum, his articles are also an experiment in art directing every single individual post, plus you don't find a lot of designers that exhibit the hacker mentality of tinkering with stuff in public to see how it works. As a designer, the natural instinct is to wait until something is fully baked and say "ta da! look how pretty this is!" rather than show a work in progress. That's what makes Mark Boulton's Drupal work so interesting as well: http://www.d7ux.org/ http://www.d7ux.org/
lsternlicht 17y ago
Most of his articles are great examples of web design that greatly enhance a reader's experience. I think that the importance of good design is often overlooked. I've always admired the design of YC startups, which I believe has made for more enjoyable experiences. After all, design is one of the three things YC mentions. "How do we choose who to fund? The people in your group are what matter most to us. We look for brains, motivation, and a sense of design. Experience is helpful but not critical."

yef 17y ago

Um, OK, but that first timeline doesn't tell me where they started from. A map would be nice, too. Maybe some charts indicating how much time is spent on the ground vs. in the air.