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Sure, the political system was completely different There's your clue. The "job guarantee", as promoted by these people, is designed to get the political syst

Sure, the political system was completely different There's your clue. The "job guarantee", as promoted by these people, is designed to get the political system changed to that of cold war-era Poland. In reality, basic income and every variant of it are extremely undesirable programs, unless they become somehow necessary--like chemotherapy. At some point, society is simply going to recognize that millions of people are useless (see previous clumsy metaphor) and deal with it. So you can give them their daily bread (basic income) or make them pretend to work for their daily bread (job guarantees). Anyway, we're already half way to basic income through a slew of programs from SNAP to Section 8 to SS disability benefits. It's weird how people are debating a resolved question.

bildung 12y ago
So you can give them their daily bread (basic income) or make them pretend to work for their daily bread (job guarantees). Sure, but the latter tries to solve a different problem set. I think overlooking that is a big problem in the debate: the basic income side reduces jobs to the income generated. The full employment side (through JG, reduction in working hours and similar models) tries to solve more: For many people, a job provides meaning. And social affiliation. That may sound stupid to the creative, self-determined cohort visiting this site, but the ability to live a self-determined life is not something the majority of workers is able to do. I worked in the poorest part of Germany for a while. The real unemployment rate is at least 30% there. The unemployed get a de facto basic income. That is below the poverty line for Germany, but I personally could happily live my life with that money. I still would have enough plans and projects to fill a 40 hour "work" week with them. But having worked with the unemployed youth I know they see themselves as completely without prospects, without use. The sit around in their rual small towns watching TV, unable to do anything productive with their lives. These are the people models like JG aim at.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  There are other ways to find meaning. For those who fail to do so in a job, BIG makes it less painful to step back and look for it elsewhere.
  - bildung 12y ago
    There are other ways to find meaning. For those who fail to do so in a job, BIG makes it less painful to step back and look for it elsewhere. Of course there are, but you have to have a certain subset of competencies to find and use them. My point is that JG and similar models are directed at those people how lack these competencies.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      True. Though of course you also need a certain set of competencies to hold a "guaranteed job" (or it ceases to provide much meaning, if it's just something people maybe show up to and don't get any work done), and if you have sufficient competencies then the guarantee is less necessary. All of that demarcates a region in person-space. It might be a region where there are a ton of people; I'm not convinced that it is, nor that those people aren't better helped in other ways (including, possibly, a BI that lets other people find meaning other ways, letting these people do that work).
danielweber 12y ago
So you can give them their daily bread (basic income) or make them pretend to work for their daily bread (job guarantees). Aren't there other options? Imagine a ramped up EITC, where people have to get some job at some number of hours per week, in order to get benefits. They need to do something at some level of value for someone else.

bildung 12y ago

So you can give them their daily bread (basic income) or make them pretend to work for their daily bread (job guarantees). Sure, but the latter tries to solve a different problem set. I think overlooking that is a big problem in the debate: the basic income side reduces jobs to the income generated. The full employment side (through JG, reduction in working hours and similar models) tries to solve more: For many people, a job provides meaning. And social affiliation. That may sound stupid to the creative, self-determined cohort visiting this site, but the ability to live a self-determined life is not something the majority of workers is able to do. I worked in the poorest part of Germany for a while. The real unemployment rate is at least 30% there. The unemployed get a de facto basic income. That is below the poverty line for Germany, but I personally could happily live my life with that money. I still would have enough plans and projects to fill a 40 hour "work" week with them. But having worked with the unemployed youth I know they see themselves as completely without prospects, without use. The sit around in their rual small towns watching TV, unable to do anything productive with their lives. These are the people models like JG aim at.

dllthomas 12y ago
There are other ways to find meaning. For those who fail to do so in a job, BIG makes it less painful to step back and look for it elsewhere.
- bildung 12y ago
  There are other ways to find meaning. For those who fail to do so in a job, BIG makes it less painful to step back and look for it elsewhere. Of course there are, but you have to have a certain subset of competencies to find and use them. My point is that JG and similar models are directed at those people how lack these competencies.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    True. Though of course you also need a certain set of competencies to hold a "guaranteed job" (or it ceases to provide much meaning, if it's just something people maybe show up to and don't get any work done), and if you have sufficient competencies then the guarantee is less necessary. All of that demarcates a region in person-space. It might be a region where there are a ton of people; I'm not convinced that it is, nor that those people aren't better helped in other ways (including, possibly, a BI that lets other people find meaning other ways, letting these people do that work).

danielweber 12y ago

So you can give them their daily bread (basic income) or make them pretend to work for their daily bread (job guarantees). Aren't there other options? Imagine a ramped up EITC, where people have to get some job at some number of hours per week, in order to get benefits. They need to do something at some level of value for someone else.