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If you're going to rag on a programming language on a site like Hacker News my advice would be to make sure you know what you are on about before you do. There

If you're going to rag on a programming language on a site like Hacker News my advice would be to make sure you know what you are on about before you do. There isn't a programming language out there that doesn't have its quirks, look at Javascript, it has more quirks than you can poke a stick at, but that doesn't make it a bad language. In your examples I am not seeing the issue? Am I missing something here? Your examples work exactly as I would have expected them to, as they would in other similar languages like Java and C++. Lets stop the hate for the sake of hating PHP, it definitely has its quirks in relation to methods and order of parameters in particular, but things are getting better and they're not deal-breakers for getting things done. If you want to see how great things are in PHP, I would checkout the Laravel PHP framework. It is a very well built and robust framework that uses the best parts of PHP and abstracts some of the worse parts to make the experience of developing in PHP fun again.

Pacabel 12y ago
The presence of some quirks isn't the issue. Of course every programming language has some. PHP and JavaScript, however, have unjustifiable quirks with some of their most basic functionality. We're talking about stuff as basic as their comparison operators being quite broken, for example. That's where the problem is. Furthermore, the fact that these issues have been around for well over a decade or more without being properly addressed just makes the situation even worse. Compared to other mainstream languages like C, C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby and even Perl, both PHP and JavaScript are quite inferior in many critical ways. Perhaps things will improve over time, but we really haven't seen that happen so far. So let's not pretend that they're "good" just to be politically correct or to try to avoid offending anyone. PHP and JavaScript aren't good languages, and they won't really improve until their communities admit that there are some very serious issues, and then commit to getting them resolved properly and rapidly.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > The presence of some quirks isn't the issue. Of course every programming language has some. It is a very weird argument that often comes up when discussing programming languages - "Lang X is weird/stupid in some ways, but no language is perfect, so it's fine and there is no reason to call it out." So, because nothing is perfect (almost by definition), it apparently isn't a big deal that some things are weird/dumb/broken. And let's also just muddy the waters by implying that, since all languages have imperfections, talking about some other language's imperfections is just being pointlessly selective (even though one of the languages imperfections are much more horrible). It's just overall a non-argument. Maybe the point is to come off as being "above" the opposite camp (which are: mindless language bashers). But it's about as intellectually stimulating as mindless language bashing: it doesn't take much intellectual curiosity or rigour to bash a language, and neither does being perfectly neutral and non-offensive by throwing around platitudes like "no language is perfect", "choose the right tool for the job", etc.
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    Exactly. The trend in modern languages is to try and eliminate as many surprising quirks as possible. If you look at Kotlin, it's basically advertised as resolving around half of the famous Java Puzzlers. And those puzzlers were themselves introduced by the authors with the proviso that Java has remarkably few quirks for something so very large, and that this is/was tremendous progress.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    I'll stress that I was agreeing with Pacabel, which might not be apparent from looking at the quote I chose to use in isolation.
Arnor 12y ago
I don't hate PHP, I hate the fucktards who use it. (bye karma...)

Pacabel 12y ago

The presence of some quirks isn't the issue. Of course every programming language has some. PHP and JavaScript, however, have unjustifiable quirks with some of their most basic functionality. We're talking about stuff as basic as their comparison operators being quite broken, for example. That's where the problem is. Furthermore, the fact that these issues have been around for well over a decade or more without being properly addressed just makes the situation even worse. Compared to other mainstream languages like C, C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby and even Perl, both PHP and JavaScript are quite inferior in many critical ways. Perhaps things will improve over time, but we really haven't seen that happen so far. So let's not pretend that they're "good" just to be politically correct or to try to avoid offending anyone. PHP and JavaScript aren't good languages, and they won't really improve until their communities admit that there are some very serious issues, and then commit to getting them resolved properly and rapidly.

Dewie 12y ago
> The presence of some quirks isn't the issue. Of course every programming language has some. It is a very weird argument that often comes up when discussing programming languages - "Lang X is weird/stupid in some ways, but no language is perfect, so it's fine and there is no reason to call it out." So, because nothing is perfect (almost by definition), it apparently isn't a big deal that some things are weird/dumb/broken. And let's also just muddy the waters by implying that, since all languages have imperfections, talking about some other language's imperfections is just being pointlessly selective (even though one of the languages imperfections are much more horrible). It's just overall a non-argument. Maybe the point is to come off as being "above" the opposite camp (which are: mindless language bashers). But it's about as intellectually stimulating as mindless language bashing: it doesn't take much intellectual curiosity or rigour to bash a language, and neither does being perfectly neutral and non-offensive by throwing around platitudes like "no language is perfect", "choose the right tool for the job", etc.
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  Exactly. The trend in modern languages is to try and eliminate as many surprising quirks as possible. If you look at Kotlin, it's basically advertised as resolving around half of the famous Java Puzzlers. And those puzzlers were themselves introduced by the authors with the proviso that Java has remarkably few quirks for something so very large, and that this is/was tremendous progress.
- Dewie 12y ago
  I'll stress that I was agreeing with Pacabel, which might not be apparent from looking at the quote I chose to use in isolation.

Arnor 12y ago

I don't hate PHP, I hate the fucktards who use it. (bye karma...)