4 ms·

So cloud companies that want to preserve user's rights w/r/t to user data and doing email should not be able to do spam detection? Should they be able to adjust

by arebop 12y ago

So cloud companies that want to preserve user's rights w/r/t to user data and doing email should not be able to do spam detection? Should they be able to adjust the markup in HTML emails such that the composition of emails into the web UI does not compromise the well-formed-ness of the page? Should they not be able to provide a "search" feature to locate emails that are relevant to a user's query? These sorts of things are all capabilities I expect in a local mail client; I think it's a reasonable to apply 4th amendment protections to the user's data, even if computation done on behalf of the user (including selecting relevant ads) happens in a remote datacenter using code the user didn't write. It is pretty ridiculous to treat users' emails the same as a grocery store's payroll when deciding whether customers have constitutional privacy safeguards.

rayiner 12y ago
At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information. With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touch of a button. When the e-mail service not only has incidental access to the data, but actively looks into that "private" data and uses that "private" data for commercial purposes. It's a distorted, results-oriented definition of "privacy." That said, you're likely going to get precisely that results-oriented interpretation, because apparently the Supreme Court, like most users, doesn't fully understand the scope of how cloud providers access and use and commercialize your data.
- watwut 12y ago
  How is that different from regular mail? Any postman can open the mail, copy/read the content and then close envelope. It is maybe 5 minutes of work.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    Its different because not only do mailmen not open mail as a matter of course, for advertising or operational purposes, its a felony to do so.
    - arebop 12y ago
      Do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy for your bedroom or can the government freely search that too? Does your answer change after you hire a housekeeper (or housekeeping company) to dust your furniture and put away your socks?
      - delg 12y ago
        You can't exclude the testimony of your housekeeper that your sock drawer was full of cocaine on the basis that you had an expectation of privacy, so yes, it changes a lot.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      But, under the ECPA, it is not a felony for system operators to do the same thing (for operational and diagnostic reasons) on networks carrying voice traffic. And yet nobody is suggesting that voice traffic isn't subject to wiretap laws.
- digisign 12y ago
  While I wouldn't expect much privacy from the provider holding my email, I would expect privacy from the government ... assuming there wasn't a warrant to access it.

by arebop 12y ago

rayiner 12y ago

At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information. With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touch of a button. When the e-mail service not only has incidental access to the data, but actively looks into that "private" data and uses that "private" data for commercial purposes. It's a distorted, results-oriented definition of "privacy." That said, you're likely going to get precisely that results-oriented interpretation, because apparently the Supreme Court, like most users, doesn't fully understand the scope of how cloud providers access and use and commercialize your data.

watwut 12y ago
How is that different from regular mail? Any postman can open the mail, copy/read the content and then close envelope. It is maybe 5 minutes of work.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Its different because not only do mailmen not open mail as a matter of course, for advertising or operational purposes, its a felony to do so.
  - arebop 12y ago
    Do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy for your bedroom or can the government freely search that too? Does your answer change after you hire a housekeeper (or housekeeping company) to dust your furniture and put away your socks?
    - delg 12y ago
      You can't exclude the testimony of your housekeeper that your sock drawer was full of cocaine on the basis that you had an expectation of privacy, so yes, it changes a lot.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    But, under the ECPA, it is not a felony for system operators to do the same thing (for operational and diagnostic reasons) on networks carrying voice traffic. And yet nobody is suggesting that voice traffic isn't subject to wiretap laws.
digisign 12y ago
While I wouldn't expect much privacy from the provider holding my email, I would expect privacy from the government ... assuming there wasn't a warrant to access it.