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If memory serves, the feds had probable cause and a warrant when they want after Lavabit. Lavabit tried to fight it. Lavabit lost. So they shut down instead and

by Kalium 12y ago

If memory serves, the feds had probable cause and a warrant when they want after Lavabit. Lavabit tried to fight it. Lavabit lost. So they shut down instead and tried to spin it as the feds shutting them down.

me1010 12y ago
I believe they were told to hand over the SSL private key. I'm not sure everyone using the Lavabit service was a criminal... So, my thought is that probable cause for handing over the master key to the hotel should be a bit more than probable cause to hand over the room key...
- Kalium 12y ago
  That's my understanding as well. Unfortunately, Lavabit used one SSL certificate for every incoming user, rendering it impossible to use anything lesser. So to continue your analogy, the hotel only had one key - the master.
TheCraiggers 12y ago
They did indeed have a warrant for the info. The problem was how they chose to pursue obtaining the info- that is, installing a MitM black box that could read all customer email going through it, not just the citizen for whom they had the warrant. I'm not sure if they promised or not to only snoop on that one individual, but even if they did you would have no way of knowing if they're telling the truth or not. From what I read, he wasn't necessarily trying to protect Snowden, but protect the rest of his userbase.
- Kalium 12y ago
  What other options were there? There was only one SSL key. Once you can MitM one user in that scenario, you can MitM them all. To my understanding Lavabit didn't have a system in place for separating out one user like that, and the feds would likely have been disinclined to wait for the development of one. So perhaps we should take this as a lesson in designing systems to be as secure as possible even with legitimate warrants rather than as a sign of warrants being abused.
  - TheCraiggers 12y ago
    My understanding was that he offered them his programming services to create a method to do exactly what they wanted- pull the email info out for just one user. True, he was going to charge them for it, but it was only $2000. A laughably small sum for the people he was dealing with. Supposedly, they denied this offer because they couldn't control it. From my perspective, $2k and a couple day wait is a paltry sum to pay to not trample over the constitution. According to Wikipedia, just one month prior, Lavabit had complied with a search order for one user suspected of child pornography. I'm not exactly sure what the difference was between these two cases, but it does show he had at least some capability to do what they asked. I do agree that "one SSL key to rule them all" is perhaps not the best practice. That said, the design of the system doesn't matter as much to me. Reality is that the system was designed in the way it was, and when offered two methods of getting their data, the feds decided to take the wrong one. (In my opinion.)
    - Kalium 12y ago
      It wouldn't surprise me if the feds are sharply limited in what they can pay for warrant-wise. There's a good chance they simply didn't legally have the option of waiting and paying $2k. Understandably, the government does not want "I have a warrant" to become the sound of a cash cow begging to be milked. If I were to guess, I would say control is actually a huge issue. If it's their equipment and software that's certified for this use, it probably satisfied chain of custody and certification requirements. If it's someone else's, who knows? It's almost certainly not certified and so it might not stand up in court at all. Certification is a big deal in the government and a court is likely to be skeptical about the use of an unproven and uncertified magic software black box in executing a warrant. So what it comes down it is that the feds may not have actually had a choice of how they got that data.
      - TheCraiggers 12y ago
        Excellent points, which I didn't think of. However, I'll ask you this: is it constitutionally agreeable to trample the rights of others for the sake of gathering evidence? I would say no. Just like how I would say searching all personal mail coming from a certain zip code because you know of someone sending secrets would be, in my viewpoint, wrong. I can chalk up the initial issue of a warrant to the judge not understanding technology, but as soon as it was explained in a courtroom how it was tied together, he should have told the feds to seek evidence elsewhere.

by Kalium 12y ago

me1010 12y ago

I believe they were told to hand over the SSL private key. I'm not sure everyone using the Lavabit service was a criminal... So, my thought is that probable cause for handing over the master key to the hotel should be a bit more than probable cause to hand over the room key...

Kalium 12y ago
That's my understanding as well. Unfortunately, Lavabit used one SSL certificate for every incoming user, rendering it impossible to use anything lesser. So to continue your analogy, the hotel only had one key - the master.

TheCraiggers 12y ago

They did indeed have a warrant for the info. The problem was how they chose to pursue obtaining the info- that is, installing a MitM black box that could read all customer email going through it, not just the citizen for whom they had the warrant. I'm not sure if they promised or not to only snoop on that one individual, but even if they did you would have no way of knowing if they're telling the truth or not. From what I read, he wasn't necessarily trying to protect Snowden, but protect the rest of his userbase.

Kalium 12y ago
What other options were there? There was only one SSL key. Once you can MitM one user in that scenario, you can MitM them all. To my understanding Lavabit didn't have a system in place for separating out one user like that, and the feds would likely have been disinclined to wait for the development of one. So perhaps we should take this as a lesson in designing systems to be as secure as possible even with legitimate warrants rather than as a sign of warrants being abused.
- TheCraiggers 12y ago
  My understanding was that he offered them his programming services to create a method to do exactly what they wanted- pull the email info out for just one user. True, he was going to charge them for it, but it was only $2000. A laughably small sum for the people he was dealing with. Supposedly, they denied this offer because they couldn't control it. From my perspective, $2k and a couple day wait is a paltry sum to pay to not trample over the constitution. According to Wikipedia, just one month prior, Lavabit had complied with a search order for one user suspected of child pornography. I'm not exactly sure what the difference was between these two cases, but it does show he had at least some capability to do what they asked. I do agree that "one SSL key to rule them all" is perhaps not the best practice. That said, the design of the system doesn't matter as much to me. Reality is that the system was designed in the way it was, and when offered two methods of getting their data, the feds decided to take the wrong one. (In my opinion.)
  - Kalium 12y ago
    It wouldn't surprise me if the feds are sharply limited in what they can pay for warrant-wise. There's a good chance they simply didn't legally have the option of waiting and paying $2k. Understandably, the government does not want "I have a warrant" to become the sound of a cash cow begging to be milked. If I were to guess, I would say control is actually a huge issue. If it's their equipment and software that's certified for this use, it probably satisfied chain of custody and certification requirements. If it's someone else's, who knows? It's almost certainly not certified and so it might not stand up in court at all. Certification is a big deal in the government and a court is likely to be skeptical about the use of an unproven and uncertified magic software black box in executing a warrant. So what it comes down it is that the feds may not have actually had a choice of how they got that data.
    - TheCraiggers 12y ago
      Excellent points, which I didn't think of. However, I'll ask you this: is it constitutionally agreeable to trample the rights of others for the sake of gathering evidence? I would say no. Just like how I would say searching all personal mail coming from a certain zip code because you know of someone sending secrets would be, in my viewpoint, wrong. I can chalk up the initial issue of a warrant to the judge not understanding technology, but as soon as it was explained in a courtroom how it was tied together, he should have told the feds to seek evidence elsewhere.