7 ms·

I just wish we had hi-res, color, e-ink monitors with quick refresh rate. I can't bring myself to read an entire book online; even if it's free.

by elwell 12y ago

UnfalseDesign 12y ago
For me, it depends on the type of book. I find I can bare reading a technical book online. However, I have trouble reading it for very long, I find myself skipping prose to get to the meat of the content, and I find a quick glance at my email or F5 on my favorite news site is just a small click away. Still, I personally find reading technical books easier on the computer while reading a novel or biography far better with a cup of coffee, an easy chair, and an e-reader.
- tragic 12y ago
  The other thing I find with reading technical books on a computer is that it's a different experience - I'm constantly flipping over to an editor/REPL to try things out, so it's not like I'm staring at a wall of text for hours on end.
coldtea 12y ago
Well, we do have retina ipads (and other tablets). e-ink I find just a gimmick -- there is no scientific research that shows it being any better than a typical monitor for the eyes (Amazon also retracted such statements IIRC). The only real benefit was resolution (which retina/hi-dpi solved) and reading in the sun (which e-ink retains as an advantage). Sure, one reflects light and the other has a light source embedded. But a photon is a photon in both cases (and you can blind yourself with a white paper too, if you hold it at the right angle to the sun) -- and you can set the tablet display at the desired, equivalent to reflectef light, brightness.
- SeanDav 12y ago
  It may be gimmicky to you, but I cannot read an entire book in a sitting or two (as I often do) on any kind of non e-ink monitor and that includes tablets. I can easily do this on a Kindle or other e-ink device. So, for me, e-ink is no gimmick, it is an essential requirement for prolonged reading.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Well, FWIW, I for one can read a whole books, actually lots of them from both iBooks and iOS's Kindle app (read on a tablet. Heck, even on an iPhone). And don't care particularly for e-ink (I also have a kindle I don't use much). If you can find some specific scientific argument why e-ink is "an essential requirement" (besides personal choice) then it's just cargo cult. I listed fairly accurately were e-ink is better, namely reading in sunlight. And battery life, which I forgot. For reading inside, it's advantages of yore, like resolution have been matched by hi-dpi screens. The only other advantage is better default contrast, which is a configurable setting on a tablet.
    - SeanDav 12y ago
      Off the top of my head there are 2 major differences between e-ink and non e-ink displays that could potentially explain differences in comfort level for prolonged use: - Non e-ink displays have a refresh rate, therefore continuous "activity" on the screen. People can have different sensitivities to this. - Non e-ink displays tend to have higher contrast and/or brightness. This would normally be considered an advantage, but again perhaps not for prolonged use. I don't need scientific papers to tell me I find e-ink more comfortable or not, it becomes very quickly apparent when I try to read a book on a tablet. Obviously you have a different perception, that does not invalidate mine.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        >I don't need scientific papers to tell me I find e-ink more comfortable or not, it becomes very quickly apparent when I try to read a book on a tablet. Well, without science to back it up, it's mostly good ole superstition. Subjective feeling doesn't say much (that's why placebo work too). The same things ("I don't need science to back this up, I know I feel better with it") are also said for "magnetic bracelets", homeopathy, and tons of similar things.
      - alok-g 12y ago
        I am not sure if either of the two effects you listed are behind this. I think the most notable issues include: 1. Less brightness as measured in nits. Emmissive displays are often tuned to much higher brightness than normal objects around us including reflective displays like E-ink. 2. Reflective displays and paper often have significantly lower front-surface reflection than LCDs/OLED displays. Add touch-screen and it gets ruined beyond repairs. The first one is easy to tune by reducing brightness levels. However (A) that makes the second one worse as the brightness of the displayed content reduces but the brightness of reflection does not, and (B) displays are often too bright even at their lowest brightness levels allowed. Put a white paper in the front of white background on the screen, and you'll see what I mean.
- doorhammer 12y ago
  the thing I really liked about my ereader was the battery life and the size/weight of it. I don't think it weighed as much as my iphone, even. But really, the battery life was the biggest thing. When I was on a cruise, I read something like four or five books on it and only got halfway through the battery life. I could have plugged it in at night, but it's nice to be able to just forget about it. Ereaders are also a great option when you're hiking/camping. If I ever go back on the appalachian trail, I'm def bringing an ereader with me. Anecdotally, they feel more comfortable to me to read long books, but that's really just comparing it to an ipad, which is way heavier, and part of that is probably subconsciously buying into the old info on eye strain.
- the_af 12y ago
  Even if there's no scientific research, e-ink doesn't seem a gimmick to me. I find it a pain to read on a laptop, but find a kindle almost as good as a real book. My eyes simply tire a lot faster with an LCD.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    As I said, laptops don't have the e-ink resolution. And depending on what you read, it might not even have the same contrast. So, unless you adjust the brightness and contrast appropriately and have a hi-DPI laptop, e-ink will come on top for reading. There's also the convenience in holding the reader vs using the laptop to read. So cannot really compare it to a common laptop. To actually compare like to like, compare an e-ink reader with a hi-dpi ("retina") tablet, with the brightness/contrast configured appropriately.
    - the_af 12y ago
      I don't think it's about resolution. I'm comparing a 15'' 1920x1080 laptop screen to my 2nd Gen Kindle. I think it's about brightness. Light-emitting screens make it harder on the eyes to read books. An iPad's screen feels similarly uncomfortable to me. The main benefit of e-ink is that it doesn't emit light and therefore feels almost like a paper book. Agreed about the ergonomics: it's more comfortable to hold a kindle than a laptop. However, I'm not sure I could replicate the experience with a tablet: I'd have to lower brightness a lot, increase contrast, and shine a light on it, at which point LCDs stop being comfortable to read.
      - alok-g 12y ago
        While I totally agree that brightness is a very important factor, there is another very significant one, front surface reflection. See more in my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8124039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8124039 However, in my experience, resolution matters too. I increased the font-size on my monitor and saw a clear impact on readability.
- chdir 12y ago
  > photon is a photon in both cases With backlit LCDs you are getting fluorescent light, whereas with e-ink you can choose to have reflected daylight or incandescent ... i.e. broad spectrum sources. Definitely different on my eyes. It's the refresh rate / responsiveness that kills the experience.
SiVal 12y ago
If a book isn't technical, I can usually read it in audio format as I do something otherwise mindless like washing dishes, so most of what I need to read (with my eyes) contains equations, code listings (like this JavaScript book), diagrams, maps, etc., that don't work well at all on today's e-ink displays: Thousand-page "Introduction to..." technical books, code listings, foreign-language tutorial textbooks, journal articles, etc. Unfortunately, all the books I really want to read with my eyes are too heavy to tote around or take on plane trips, which is almost the only time I have time to read them. I need a REALLY GOOD reader. I wish I had a lightweight, clipboard-sized, hi-rez, B&W, PDF reader with the flick scrolling, pinch resizing, etc. of an iPad with the battery life to last a whole delayed flight from San Francisco->Tokyo->Singapore, door to door. I might be able to make do with a jumbo tablet if the USB ports that some airlines now put in the seats can power it.
- doorhammer 12y ago
  I hear you. I tried a lot of options before just settling on an ipad for a reader when it comes to anything that resembles a technical manual or text book. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has any other better suggestions, as far as that goes. I guess you could go the route of bringing an external lithium ion battery w/ usb charger cord, but those are always kind of kludgy
- mandeepj 12y ago
  I had same reasons that you mentioned so I recently ordered kindle paper white. I am not sure if it will fit the bill otherwise I will return it. Big plus that kindle have over others is e-ink that will make it easy on eyes. It is hard to read (and not good for eyes) on other devices for long.
- lookingsideways 12y ago
  > I need a REALLY GOOD reader. I wish I had a lightweight, clipboard-sized, hi-rez, B&W, PDF reader with the flick scrolling, pinch resizing, etc. of an iPad with the battery life to last a whole delayed flight from San Francisco->Tokyo->Singapore, door to door. Have you seen the Sony Digital Paper System[0]? It seems to fit the bill perfectly but the price point high. [0]: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/?PID=I:digitalpaper:digitalpaperproductpage http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/?PID=I:digitalpap...
chatmasta 12y ago
I agree completely. I would love to be able to sit outside and code on my laptop, but the glossy Macbook air screen makes this almost impossible. I would pay good money for a barebones, development only laptop with an e-ink monitor. For what it's worth, some people have hacked around with the Kindle to try to make this a reality, but as you say, the refresh rate is the bottleneck. [1] [1] http://www.ponnuki.net/2012/09/kindleberry-pi/ http://www.ponnuki.net/2012/09/kindleberry-pi/
- frik 12y ago
  Me too. I would like to replace my older business notebook (mate display, good colors) with a MacBook but Apple only ships glossy displays nowadays :( I hate the eye-strain that the iPad causes when I use it outside in nature. Sometimes I go back to my Kindle, but it is too slow and too small for my complex PDFs.
  - sireat 12y ago
    Currently the biggest ebook reader is the Sony 13.3 incher but it is hard to obtain and quite expensive: http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/03/27/sonys-13-3-ereader-to-ship-in-the-us-in-may-will-cost-1100/#.U9t69vlSxv4 http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/03/27/sonys-13-3-ereader-...
    - frik 12y ago
      Thanks for the hint. Maybe I should buy that one, before Sony stops producing eBook readers. On February 6, 2014, Sony announced that it is closing its North American Reader Store in late March, migrating all its customers to the Kobo Reader Store. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Reader#Models_and_availability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Reader#Models_and_availabi...

I just wish we had hi-res, color, e-ink monitors with quick refresh rate. I can't bring myself to read an entire book online; even if it's free.

by elwell 12y ago

I just wish we had hi-res, color, e-ink monitors with quick refresh rate. I can't bring myself to read an entire book online; even if it's free.

UnfalseDesign 12y ago

For me, it depends on the type of book. I find I can bare reading a technical book online. However, I have trouble reading it for very long, I find myself skipping prose to get to the meat of the content, and I find a quick glance at my email or F5 on my favorite news site is just a small click away. Still, I personally find reading technical books easier on the computer while reading a novel or biography far better with a cup of coffee, an easy chair, and an e-reader.

tragic 12y ago
The other thing I find with reading technical books on a computer is that it's a different experience - I'm constantly flipping over to an editor/REPL to try things out, so it's not like I'm staring at a wall of text for hours on end.

coldtea 12y ago

Well, we do have retina ipads (and other tablets). e-ink I find just a gimmick -- there is no scientific research that shows it being any better than a typical monitor for the eyes (Amazon also retracted such statements IIRC). The only real benefit was resolution (which retina/hi-dpi solved) and reading in the sun (which e-ink retains as an advantage). Sure, one reflects light and the other has a light source embedded. But a photon is a photon in both cases (and you can blind yourself with a white paper too, if you hold it at the right angle to the sun) -- and you can set the tablet display at the desired, equivalent to reflectef light, brightness.

SeanDav 12y ago
It may be gimmicky to you, but I cannot read an entire book in a sitting or two (as I often do) on any kind of non e-ink monitor and that includes tablets. I can easily do this on a Kindle or other e-ink device. So, for me, e-ink is no gimmick, it is an essential requirement for prolonged reading.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Well, FWIW, I for one can read a whole books, actually lots of them from both iBooks and iOS's Kindle app (read on a tablet. Heck, even on an iPhone). And don't care particularly for e-ink (I also have a kindle I don't use much). If you can find some specific scientific argument why e-ink is "an essential requirement" (besides personal choice) then it's just cargo cult. I listed fairly accurately were e-ink is better, namely reading in sunlight. And battery life, which I forgot. For reading inside, it's advantages of yore, like resolution have been matched by hi-dpi screens. The only other advantage is better default contrast, which is a configurable setting on a tablet.
  - SeanDav 12y ago
    Off the top of my head there are 2 major differences between e-ink and non e-ink displays that could potentially explain differences in comfort level for prolonged use: - Non e-ink displays have a refresh rate, therefore continuous "activity" on the screen. People can have different sensitivities to this. - Non e-ink displays tend to have higher contrast and/or brightness. This would normally be considered an advantage, but again perhaps not for prolonged use. I don't need scientific papers to tell me I find e-ink more comfortable or not, it becomes very quickly apparent when I try to read a book on a tablet. Obviously you have a different perception, that does not invalidate mine.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >I don't need scientific papers to tell me I find e-ink more comfortable or not, it becomes very quickly apparent when I try to read a book on a tablet. Well, without science to back it up, it's mostly good ole superstition. Subjective feeling doesn't say much (that's why placebo work too). The same things ("I don't need science to back this up, I know I feel better with it") are also said for "magnetic bracelets", homeopathy, and tons of similar things.
    - alok-g 12y ago
      I am not sure if either of the two effects you listed are behind this. I think the most notable issues include: 1. Less brightness as measured in nits. Emmissive displays are often tuned to much higher brightness than normal objects around us including reflective displays like E-ink. 2. Reflective displays and paper often have significantly lower front-surface reflection than LCDs/OLED displays. Add touch-screen and it gets ruined beyond repairs. The first one is easy to tune by reducing brightness levels. However (A) that makes the second one worse as the brightness of the displayed content reduces but the brightness of reflection does not, and (B) displays are often too bright even at their lowest brightness levels allowed. Put a white paper in the front of white background on the screen, and you'll see what I mean.
doorhammer 12y ago
the thing I really liked about my ereader was the battery life and the size/weight of it. I don't think it weighed as much as my iphone, even. But really, the battery life was the biggest thing. When I was on a cruise, I read something like four or five books on it and only got halfway through the battery life. I could have plugged it in at night, but it's nice to be able to just forget about it. Ereaders are also a great option when you're hiking/camping. If I ever go back on the appalachian trail, I'm def bringing an ereader with me. Anecdotally, they feel more comfortable to me to read long books, but that's really just comparing it to an ipad, which is way heavier, and part of that is probably subconsciously buying into the old info on eye strain.
the_af 12y ago
Even if there's no scientific research, e-ink doesn't seem a gimmick to me. I find it a pain to read on a laptop, but find a kindle almost as good as a real book. My eyes simply tire a lot faster with an LCD.
- coldtea 12y ago
  As I said, laptops don't have the e-ink resolution. And depending on what you read, it might not even have the same contrast. So, unless you adjust the brightness and contrast appropriately and have a hi-DPI laptop, e-ink will come on top for reading. There's also the convenience in holding the reader vs using the laptop to read. So cannot really compare it to a common laptop. To actually compare like to like, compare an e-ink reader with a hi-dpi ("retina") tablet, with the brightness/contrast configured appropriately.
  - the_af 12y ago
    I don't think it's about resolution. I'm comparing a 15'' 1920x1080 laptop screen to my 2nd Gen Kindle. I think it's about brightness. Light-emitting screens make it harder on the eyes to read books. An iPad's screen feels similarly uncomfortable to me. The main benefit of e-ink is that it doesn't emit light and therefore feels almost like a paper book. Agreed about the ergonomics: it's more comfortable to hold a kindle than a laptop. However, I'm not sure I could replicate the experience with a tablet: I'd have to lower brightness a lot, increase contrast, and shine a light on it, at which point LCDs stop being comfortable to read.
    - alok-g 12y ago
      While I totally agree that brightness is a very important factor, there is another very significant one, front surface reflection. See more in my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8124039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8124039 However, in my experience, resolution matters too. I increased the font-size on my monitor and saw a clear impact on readability.
chdir 12y ago
> photon is a photon in both cases With backlit LCDs you are getting fluorescent light, whereas with e-ink you can choose to have reflected daylight or incandescent ... i.e. broad spectrum sources. Definitely different on my eyes. It's the refresh rate / responsiveness that kills the experience.

SiVal 12y ago

If a book isn't technical, I can usually read it in audio format as I do something otherwise mindless like washing dishes, so most of what I need to read (with my eyes) contains equations, code listings (like this JavaScript book), diagrams, maps, etc., that don't work well at all on today's e-ink displays: Thousand-page "Introduction to..." technical books, code listings, foreign-language tutorial textbooks, journal articles, etc. Unfortunately, all the books I really want to read with my eyes are too heavy to tote around or take on plane trips, which is almost the only time I have time to read them. I need a REALLY GOOD reader. I wish I had a lightweight, clipboard-sized, hi-rez, B&W, PDF reader with the flick scrolling, pinch resizing, etc. of an iPad with the battery life to last a whole delayed flight from San Francisco->Tokyo->Singapore, door to door. I might be able to make do with a jumbo tablet if the USB ports that some airlines now put in the seats can power it.

doorhammer 12y ago
I hear you. I tried a lot of options before just settling on an ipad for a reader when it comes to anything that resembles a technical manual or text book. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has any other better suggestions, as far as that goes. I guess you could go the route of bringing an external lithium ion battery w/ usb charger cord, but those are always kind of kludgy
mandeepj 12y ago
I had same reasons that you mentioned so I recently ordered kindle paper white. I am not sure if it will fit the bill otherwise I will return it. Big plus that kindle have over others is e-ink that will make it easy on eyes. It is hard to read (and not good for eyes) on other devices for long.
lookingsideways 12y ago
> I need a REALLY GOOD reader. I wish I had a lightweight, clipboard-sized, hi-rez, B&W, PDF reader with the flick scrolling, pinch resizing, etc. of an iPad with the battery life to last a whole delayed flight from San Francisco->Tokyo->Singapore, door to door. Have you seen the Sony Digital Paper System[0]? It seems to fit the bill perfectly but the price point high. [0]: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/?PID=I:digitalpaper:digitalpaperproductpage http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/?PID=I:digitalpap...

chatmasta 12y ago

I agree completely. I would love to be able to sit outside and code on my laptop, but the glossy Macbook air screen makes this almost impossible. I would pay good money for a barebones, development only laptop with an e-ink monitor. For what it's worth, some people have hacked around with the Kindle to try to make this a reality, but as you say, the refresh rate is the bottleneck. [1] [1] http://www.ponnuki.net/2012/09/kindleberry-pi/ http://www.ponnuki.net/2012/09/kindleberry-pi/

frik 12y ago
Me too. I would like to replace my older business notebook (mate display, good colors) with a MacBook but Apple only ships glossy displays nowadays :( I hate the eye-strain that the iPad causes when I use it outside in nature. Sometimes I go back to my Kindle, but it is too slow and too small for my complex PDFs.
- sireat 12y ago
  Currently the biggest ebook reader is the Sony 13.3 incher but it is hard to obtain and quite expensive: http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/03/27/sonys-13-3-ereader-to-ship-in-the-us-in-may-will-cost-1100/#.U9t69vlSxv4 http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/03/27/sonys-13-3-ereader-...
  - frik 12y ago
    Thanks for the hint. Maybe I should buy that one, before Sony stops producing eBook readers. On February 6, 2014, Sony announced that it is closing its North American Reader Store in late March, migrating all its customers to the Kobo Reader Store. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Reader#Models_and_availability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Reader#Models_and_availabi...