6 ms·

Founders On Depression

70 points by fearless 12y ago

Domenic_S 12y ago
> First of all, not sure I would call depression mental illness. In fact, I am offended by the word. It’s like saying that having a fever when you get a cold is having a muscle illness. I think the majority of people out there are depressed at some point and have no idea because society deems depression as a “mental illness” and therefore as something foreign and strange that only mentally ill people have. Key to addressing this ever growing phenomenon, especially in today’s social networking age that the tech community has helped bring about, is to accept it as a natural consequence of life and address it as such. Founder 2 is dangerously wrong. This person shows the fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness and turns it into a shameful thing -- mental illness is for crazy people!. Brain:body :: mental illness:physical illness. Further, he dismisses depression as "a natural consequence of life," which is one step from saying "everyone feels sad sometimes, get over it." People find it so difficult to get treatment for depression, which is absurd to me. If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken.
- badman_ting 12y ago
  > If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken. People say this sort of thing a lot, but it strikes me as unhelpful. The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real, whether you think it's absurd or not. And that stigma often exists in the very people who need help, so just saying "oh you're being silly" is super not empathetic. It's actually not that different from the founder you mention. Furthermore, 5 separate doctors will all concur that my arm is broken. But they will not concur that I have schizophrenia, or borderline personality disorder, or whatever. There are a number of reasons why that is, but my point is that none of this is as cut-and-dried as a fracture -- not the diagnosis, not the treatment, not the patient's acceptance that something is wrong.
  - kendalk 12y ago
    > "The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real" Not only is it a societal stigma, but it is nearly a form of accepted discrimination set in concrete. Within the past year some states have been pushing to start collecting all mental health records. There are people who really who really do need to seek help, but actions like that will only make them afraid to come forward.
  - incision 12y ago
    >'The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real, whether you think it's absurd or not.' Absolutely true. Not just stigma, but plain discrimination. Good luck getting an interview if you list Haloperidol [1] under 'Current Medications'. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol
  - wuliwong 12y ago
    I agree. I've battled with all types of "mental problems" throughout my life and honestly, the poeple around me that cared accepted that I needed help well before I did.
- mikegioia 12y ago
  I definitely agree with you. He seems to be perpetuating the notion that depression is somehow a character flaw. There are so many different reasons why people get depressed that I think it clouds the distinction between general sadness and actual psychological depression. The only thing I found to truly help was pure empathy from any combination of loved ones/professionals.
  - wdewind 12y ago
    No, not as a character flaw, but as a reasonable response to a huge amount of stress. I still agree that he is dangerously ambiguous and mostly incorrect though.
    - jmathai 12y ago
      It's one thing to have external factors such as stress cause depression. Most of what I read concerning "founder depression" is along those lines. It sucks and isn't something to take lightly, even if some view it as self inflicted. But there's an entirely different class of mental illness that's closely tied to depression; those caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Stress often amplifies the symptoms (think of people with multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, etc) but isn't the root cause. I imagine the founder you're quoting has never had a close friend or family member that suffers from the latter. I get that they might not understand but it's unfortunate they hit "depression" with a sledge hammer by generalizing it so much.
      - wdewind 12y ago
        It's complicated. You could argue stress is always the root cause and what varies is simply one's reaction to the stress. I feel deeply uncomfortable drawing a line between people who have "real depression" and "stress caused" depression. You wouldn't make the same comparison with people who have less advanced degrees of cancer, and yet those too can be stress induced, and thus viewed as "self inflicted."
        jmathai 12y ago
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  This, this a million time. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. Hell, over here (Canada) we have ads and public campaigns all over that say "Depression is a mental illness, do not be shameful, consult a mental health professional".
- johnward 12y ago
  If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. When that doesn't work they put you on another, and another. I've been dealing with trying to get some help for years and I'm pretty sure they think I'm just making up shit at this point.
  - wdewind 12y ago
    > If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. I have to heavily disagree with you because I don't want your post to dissuade anyone who may be considering looking for help from doing so. It is not an intractable problem. I have tried to get help, and received it with zero medication. The key is to see a therapist (PhD - talk therapy) not a psychiatrist (MD - prescribe drugs). Weekly talk therapy + mindfulness + meditation worked extremely well for me, over the course of about 9 months, in terms of dealing with anxiety and depression. I don't feel "cured" but I feel way more in control than I did before, and I am no longer afraid of depression and anxiety, I've literally learned to cope. As someone who is very comfortable with the fact that I was in therapy at one point, I really want to encourage everyone to try it, even if you are completely happy right now. Think of it as casually taking intro classes in learning to deal with the stress of life, and learning some basic emotional coping skills, not some way to fix yourself. All that being said, there are people for whom I would guess drugs are preferable. I had that discussion with my therapist and we agreed they weren't for me. I can't speak for you, but I would highly suggest the multitude of non-drug opportunities for addressing mental health issues since it seems like the drugs aren't necessarily helping. Your doctor should be able to refer you to a talk therapist, but if not you should really consider switching doctors. Finally, my contact information is in my profile, anyone who might have any questions about any of this or who is considering trying therapy, please feel free to contact me.
    - johnward 12y ago
      It's not that I want to avoid medication I just want whatever can help. I am talking about when you see your general practitioner and they prescribe you the usual antidepressants. A psychiatrist can prescribe much more powerful drugs and probably provide a better diagnoses too. I have not been referred to one of them. I've been to a clinal therapist and while it helped a little bit I'm still no where near what I feel is normal. Going to a therapist is a major time and money commitment. I luckily have a job that is pretty flexible. The most helpful thing for me is exercise which gives me a temporary relief for a few hours afterwords but sometimes I don't have enough energy. I also keep injuring myself and that prevents me from being able to get a good workout.
- wuliwong 12y ago
  I think get what you are trying to say, and as someone who has dealt with panic disorder, severe depression and addiction in my life, I certainly am glad that there is support, that people take it seriously and that there were some people that didn't judge me along the way. That being said, the way you are express your arguments yields some unintended consequences in logic. I believe that your implication that a broken arm and a "broken" brain are synonymous is over simplistic if not outright wrong. There is very little debate as to the proper functioning of a healthy arm and how to return a broken one to that state. Obviously this is not true for "mental" issues. The idea that all "mental" issues are a result of something "broken" in the brain is something very much up for debate. There are serious, fundamental open questions in neuroscience related to consciousness, memory and disease. Also the assumption that our "mental makeup" is entirely physical without any "meta-physical" component certainly isn't known. That last part maybe a bit outside the scope of neuroSCIENCE but it doesn't mean it is incorrect. I actually got my Ph.D. studying problems in neuroscience and I often found myself pondering some pretty strange ideas as possible explanations for observed phenomenon.
  - Domenic_S 12y ago
    > Obviously this is not true for "mental" issues. It's simplistic, sure. But just because we know less about fixing neurons than we do knitting bones doesn't mean we shouldn't visit a doctor. > The idea that all "mental" issues are a result of something "broken" in the brain is something very much up for debate. Sort of, but only really because we don't fully understand what's going on in there. Antidepressants work, we know that, but good luck finding out exactly why they work. Is depression caused by faulty mood regulation? Genetics? Environment? We're not sure. But we do know that we can treat it -- and usually pretty successfully -- with some chemicals and some talk therapy. On the science side, yes, it's an interesting problem that we have a lot to learn about. On the patient side, we can do a LOT to make a depressed person's life livable.
  - fossuser 12y ago
    Was with you up until that last paragraph. Strokes and poking around in the brain seem to provide pretty strong evidence that it's all physical. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you were suggesting, since meta-physical doesn't really imply much.
- iza 12y ago
  > People find it so difficult to get treatment for depression, which is absurd to me. If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken. Yes, it is absurd. And those of us with depression are well aware of how absurd it is. But that doesn't make it any easier to actually go and get help. In fact the inability to seek help is yet another item on the long list of things that should be easy to do but aren't when you are depressed. All of which further reinforces the low self-esteem. I wouldn't so readily dismiss the opinion of someone who actually has experience with depression when you clearly do not. Yes he is misunderstanding the term "mental illness" but this is the interpretation that most of the rest of society holds. Depression is not like a broken arm. It is not a "thing" that you "have". It is more of a description of a state of mind. There is no silver bullet cure because there is no single cause, it is deeply rooted in other issues.
badman_ting 12y ago
I'm not a founder, just a techie with mild depressive tendencies. I think the advice to talk to someone when you feel it coming on is the best - if you talk to someone about the specific things bothering you, it can help avoid the scenario where the things loom so large in your mind that you can't get past them. Talking about problems somehow brings them back down to human scale and can help you realize how much you've built them up in your head. It's remarkable the number of times in my life that I have dreaded something that ended up being totally not that big a deal.
jwallaceparker 12y ago
At first glance at the title I thought this was going to be quotes from Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Sam Adams, John Hancock and so on about how to cope with depression. That would've been great. I still think it's a good idea for an article.
spuiszis 12y ago
For any of those needing help or looking for advice, there's a community for developers called DevPressed (http://devpressed.com/ http://devpressed.com/).
jacquesm 12y ago
http://www.7cupsoftea.com/ http://www.7cupsoftea.com/
joeyspn 12y ago
Depression, Bipolar, and Borderline disorders are deeply related and linked with creativity (specially bipolarity). The literature and scientific studies that confirm this are numerous [0]. It isn’t rare (at all) to find entrepreneurs that are hypomaniacs or bipolars (periods of depression and periods of mania alternating), most of them undiagnosed. Some people just channel the emotions derived from these disorders into a creation process (entrepreneurs building products, painters crafting pieces, musicians writing songs, etc). [0] http://is.gd/tMSfmH http://is.gd/tMSfmH

70 points by fearless 12y ago

> First of all, not sure I would call depression mental illness. In fact, I am offended by the word. It’s like saying that having a fever when you get a cold is having a muscle illness. I think the majority of people out there are depressed at some point and have no idea because society deems depression as a “mental illness” and therefore as something foreign and strange that only mentally ill people have. Key to addressing this ever growing phenomenon, especially in today’s social networking age that the tech community has helped bring about, is to accept it as a natural consequence of life and address it as such. Founder 2 is dangerously wrong. This person shows the fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness and turns it into a shameful thing -- mental illness is for crazy people!. Brain:body :: mental illness:physical illness. Further, he dismisses depression as "a natural consequence of life," which is one step from saying "everyone feels sad sometimes, get over it." People find it so difficult to get treatment for depression, which is absurd to me. If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken.

badman_ting 12y ago
> If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken. People say this sort of thing a lot, but it strikes me as unhelpful. The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real, whether you think it's absurd or not. And that stigma often exists in the very people who need help, so just saying "oh you're being silly" is super not empathetic. It's actually not that different from the founder you mention. Furthermore, 5 separate doctors will all concur that my arm is broken. But they will not concur that I have schizophrenia, or borderline personality disorder, or whatever. There are a number of reasons why that is, but my point is that none of this is as cut-and-dried as a fracture -- not the diagnosis, not the treatment, not the patient's acceptance that something is wrong.
- kendalk 12y ago
  > "The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real" Not only is it a societal stigma, but it is nearly a form of accepted discrimination set in concrete. Within the past year some states have been pushing to start collecting all mental health records. There are people who really who really do need to seek help, but actions like that will only make them afraid to come forward.
- incision 12y ago
  >'The stigma against seeking help for mental health exists and is real, whether you think it's absurd or not.' Absolutely true. Not just stigma, but plain discrimination. Good luck getting an interview if you list Haloperidol [1] under 'Current Medications'. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol
- wuliwong 12y ago
  I agree. I've battled with all types of "mental problems" throughout my life and honestly, the poeple around me that cared accepted that I needed help well before I did.
mikegioia 12y ago
I definitely agree with you. He seems to be perpetuating the notion that depression is somehow a character flaw. There are so many different reasons why people get depressed that I think it clouds the distinction between general sadness and actual psychological depression. The only thing I found to truly help was pure empathy from any combination of loved ones/professionals.
- wdewind 12y ago
  No, not as a character flaw, but as a reasonable response to a huge amount of stress. I still agree that he is dangerously ambiguous and mostly incorrect though.
  - jmathai 12y ago
    It's one thing to have external factors such as stress cause depression. Most of what I read concerning "founder depression" is along those lines. It sucks and isn't something to take lightly, even if some view it as self inflicted. But there's an entirely different class of mental illness that's closely tied to depression; those caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Stress often amplifies the symptoms (think of people with multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, etc) but isn't the root cause. I imagine the founder you're quoting has never had a close friend or family member that suffers from the latter. I get that they might not understand but it's unfortunate they hit "depression" with a sledge hammer by generalizing it so much.
    - wdewind 12y ago
      It's complicated. You could argue stress is always the root cause and what varies is simply one's reaction to the stress. I feel deeply uncomfortable drawing a line between people who have "real depression" and "stress caused" depression. You wouldn't make the same comparison with people who have less advanced degrees of cancer, and yet those too can be stress induced, and thus viewed as "self inflicted."
      - jmathai 12y ago
Raphmedia 12y ago
This, this a million time. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. Hell, over here (Canada) we have ads and public campaigns all over that say "Depression is a mental illness, do not be shameful, consult a mental health professional".
johnward 12y ago
If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. When that doesn't work they put you on another, and another. I've been dealing with trying to get some help for years and I'm pretty sure they think I'm just making up shit at this point.
- wdewind 12y ago
  > If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. I have to heavily disagree with you because I don't want your post to dissuade anyone who may be considering looking for help from doing so. It is not an intractable problem. I have tried to get help, and received it with zero medication. The key is to see a therapist (PhD - talk therapy) not a psychiatrist (MD - prescribe drugs). Weekly talk therapy + mindfulness + meditation worked extremely well for me, over the course of about 9 months, in terms of dealing with anxiety and depression. I don't feel "cured" but I feel way more in control than I did before, and I am no longer afraid of depression and anxiety, I've literally learned to cope. As someone who is very comfortable with the fact that I was in therapy at one point, I really want to encourage everyone to try it, even if you are completely happy right now. Think of it as casually taking intro classes in learning to deal with the stress of life, and learning some basic emotional coping skills, not some way to fix yourself. All that being said, there are people for whom I would guess drugs are preferable. I had that discussion with my therapist and we agreed they weren't for me. I can't speak for you, but I would highly suggest the multitude of non-drug opportunities for addressing mental health issues since it seems like the drugs aren't necessarily helping. Your doctor should be able to refer you to a talk therapist, but if not you should really consider switching doctors. Finally, my contact information is in my profile, anyone who might have any questions about any of this or who is considering trying therapy, please feel free to contact me.
  - johnward 12y ago
    It's not that I want to avoid medication I just want whatever can help. I am talking about when you see your general practitioner and they prescribe you the usual antidepressants. A psychiatrist can prescribe much more powerful drugs and probably provide a better diagnoses too. I have not been referred to one of them. I've been to a clinal therapist and while it helped a little bit I'm still no where near what I feel is normal. Going to a therapist is a major time and money commitment. I luckily have a job that is pretty flexible. The most helpful thing for me is exercise which gives me a temporary relief for a few hours afterwords but sometimes I don't have enough energy. I also keep injuring myself and that prevents me from being able to get a good workout.
wuliwong 12y ago
I think get what you are trying to say, and as someone who has dealt with panic disorder, severe depression and addiction in my life, I certainly am glad that there is support, that people take it seriously and that there were some people that didn't judge me along the way. That being said, the way you are express your arguments yields some unintended consequences in logic. I believe that your implication that a broken arm and a "broken" brain are synonymous is over simplistic if not outright wrong. There is very little debate as to the proper functioning of a healthy arm and how to return a broken one to that state. Obviously this is not true for "mental" issues. The idea that all "mental" issues are a result of something "broken" in the brain is something very much up for debate. There are serious, fundamental open questions in neuroscience related to consciousness, memory and disease. Also the assumption that our "mental makeup" is entirely physical without any "meta-physical" component certainly isn't known. That last part maybe a bit outside the scope of neuroSCIENCE but it doesn't mean it is incorrect. I actually got my Ph.D. studying problems in neuroscience and I often found myself pondering some pretty strange ideas as possible explanations for observed phenomenon.
- Domenic_S 12y ago
  > Obviously this is not true for "mental" issues. It's simplistic, sure. But just because we know less about fixing neurons than we do knitting bones doesn't mean we shouldn't visit a doctor. > The idea that all "mental" issues are a result of something "broken" in the brain is something very much up for debate. Sort of, but only really because we don't fully understand what's going on in there. Antidepressants work, we know that, but good luck finding out exactly why they work. Is depression caused by faulty mood regulation? Genetics? Environment? We're not sure. But we do know that we can treat it -- and usually pretty successfully -- with some chemicals and some talk therapy. On the science side, yes, it's an interesting problem that we have a lot to learn about. On the patient side, we can do a LOT to make a depressed person's life livable.
- fossuser 12y ago
  Was with you up until that last paragraph. Strokes and poking around in the brain seem to provide pretty strong evidence that it's all physical. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you were suggesting, since meta-physical doesn't really imply much.
iza 12y ago
> People find it so difficult to get treatment for depression, which is absurd to me. If your arm gets broken, you don't "suck it up" and say "that's life", you go to a doctor and get treated. It's no different when your brain gets broken. Yes, it is absurd. And those of us with depression are well aware of how absurd it is. But that doesn't make it any easier to actually go and get help. In fact the inability to seek help is yet another item on the long list of things that should be easy to do but aren't when you are depressed. All of which further reinforces the low self-esteem. I wouldn't so readily dismiss the opinion of someone who actually has experience with depression when you clearly do not. Yes he is misunderstanding the term "mental illness" but this is the interpretation that most of the rest of society holds. Depression is not like a broken arm. It is not a "thing" that you "have". It is more of a description of a state of mind. There is no silver bullet cure because there is no single cause, it is deeply rooted in other issues.

badman_ting 12y ago

I'm not a founder, just a techie with mild depressive tendencies. I think the advice to talk to someone when you feel it coming on is the best - if you talk to someone about the specific things bothering you, it can help avoid the scenario where the things loom so large in your mind that you can't get past them. Talking about problems somehow brings them back down to human scale and can help you realize how much you've built them up in your head. It's remarkable the number of times in my life that I have dreaded something that ended up being totally not that big a deal.

jwallaceparker 12y ago

At first glance at the title I thought this was going to be quotes from Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Sam Adams, John Hancock and so on about how to cope with depression. That would've been great. I still think it's a good idea for an article.

spuiszis 12y ago

For any of those needing help or looking for advice, there's a community for developers called DevPressed (http://devpressed.com/ http://devpressed.com/).

jacquesm 12y ago

http://www.7cupsoftea.com/ http://www.7cupsoftea.com/

joeyspn 12y ago

Depression, Bipolar, and Borderline disorders are deeply related and linked with creativity (specially bipolarity). The literature and scientific studies that confirm this are numerous [0]. It isn’t rare (at all) to find entrepreneurs that are hypomaniacs or bipolars (periods of depression and periods of mania alternating), most of them undiagnosed. Some people just channel the emotions derived from these disorders into a creation process (entrepreneurs building products, painters crafting pieces, musicians writing songs, etc). [0] http://is.gd/tMSfmH http://is.gd/tMSfmH