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You didn't give me an example. The UK attempted example was for anonymity, not a complete shut down of the press. A small percentage of the media may be invol

by steven2012 12y ago

You didn't give me an example. The UK attempted example was for anonymity, not a complete shut down of the press. A small percentage of the media may be involved in gossip, but when it comes to political corruption, we need to have complete transparency, without any compromises. Using the threat of economic consequences is a horrible reason to enable politicians to usurp power from the free press.

anigbrowl 12y ago
I gave you the example of India (which derives its court system from the UK), it's not my fault you didn't like it. A small percentage of the media may be involved in gossip, but when it comes to political corruption, we need to have complete transparency, without any compromises. You need transparency of result, but you don't need it immediately. Legal proceedings can feature a lot of untruths as well, some of which could cause great harm. The reality is that courts in civilized countries deal with sealed evidence/testimony on a regular basis for a variety of reasons, and this doesn't substantially impede the course of justice even though it may occasionally be perverted. I'm highly skeptical of arguments that reject any possibility of compromise, because they tend to assume the outcome will be a perfect process. Using the threat of economic consequences is a horrible reason to enable politicians to usurp power from the free press. I think you're projecting your imagination about what the case involves a bit here. I really don't see enough details to be sure. What if the allegations under seal turn out to be baseless or inaccurate, for example? Is the satisfaction of immediate total transparency worth the damage that may accrue during a multi-year legal proceeding before the court issues a verdict? After all, you can punish guilty parties following a conviction, but it's very hard to repair an innocent person's reputation. Where senior officials of other countries may be involved in a case, in a variety of capacities from potentially culpable to entirely innocent, are you willing to risk plunging someone else's country into political instability before you've had time to fully assess the evidence? What if the people of the country think the legal proceeding is an attempt to meddle with their internal politics, whether or not this is actually the case? I strongly disagree with you about transparency being an unalloyed good or a panacea for social ills. Within reasonable limits (and I think a 5-year period for a complex legal proceeding may meet that standard) it can be appropriate to employ judicial discretion. Obviously, we're not going to agree about this, but I'll put a note on my calendar to follow it up in 2019 and see what the big secret was.
- steven2012 12y ago
  As I said, India is a highly corrupt country, and their judicial system is not worthy of discussion. In a country where bribing of police officers is commonplace, I'm sure everything is open for discussion. All you are doing is spreading FUD. If you were concerned about innocent people's reputations, then you would want all trials to be "in camera" with no information for 5 years. There isn't even a single example where having an open trial plunged a country into political instability with the likes of what you describe, let alone from a trial in another country. It's pure nonsense. "But but but... it COULD happen!" No, it can't ever happen. It's never happened and it never will. There is no justification to censor the press for any reason, especially political censorship.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    You don't have to approve of India's judicial system to acknowledge the fact that it hold some kinds of trials in camera, which was all I asserted. "But but but... it COULD happen!" No, it can't ever happen. It's never happened and it never will. Really? Here's an example of a trial that resulted in the collapse of a government, the assassination of a central figure, and eventual reversal of the verdicts by a higher court that found serious irregularities in how the trial had been conducted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner But carry on, you clearly know far more about this stuff than I do.
    - steven2012 12y ago
      Interesting example but still further nonsense. A no confidence vote isn't political instability, that's exactly how the government should be working, ie political stability, especially when you have coalition governments. A government losing power in a no confidence vote happens all the time. That's like saying the US was plunged into ypolitical instability when George Bush Sr. lost his second term because of the "no new taxes" misstep. Political instability is what happened in Syria, Thailand, Egypt, etc over the last few years. Contrast this to Canada where the same coalition government broke down and cause several elections over a span of a few years. But an educated perso would never consider Canada to be politically unstable.

anigbrowl 12y ago

I gave you the example of India (which derives its court system from the UK), it's not my fault you didn't like it. A small percentage of the media may be involved in gossip, but when it comes to political corruption, we need to have complete transparency, without any compromises. You need transparency of result, but you don't need it immediately. Legal proceedings can feature a lot of untruths as well, some of which could cause great harm. The reality is that courts in civilized countries deal with sealed evidence/testimony on a regular basis for a variety of reasons, and this doesn't substantially impede the course of justice even though it may occasionally be perverted. I'm highly skeptical of arguments that reject any possibility of compromise, because they tend to assume the outcome will be a perfect process. Using the threat of economic consequences is a horrible reason to enable politicians to usurp power from the free press. I think you're projecting your imagination about what the case involves a bit here. I really don't see enough details to be sure. What if the allegations under seal turn out to be baseless or inaccurate, for example? Is the satisfaction of immediate total transparency worth the damage that may accrue during a multi-year legal proceeding before the court issues a verdict? After all, you can punish guilty parties following a conviction, but it's very hard to repair an innocent person's reputation. Where senior officials of other countries may be involved in a case, in a variety of capacities from potentially culpable to entirely innocent, are you willing to risk plunging someone else's country into political instability before you've had time to fully assess the evidence? What if the people of the country think the legal proceeding is an attempt to meddle with their internal politics, whether or not this is actually the case? I strongly disagree with you about transparency being an unalloyed good or a panacea for social ills. Within reasonable limits (and I think a 5-year period for a complex legal proceeding may meet that standard) it can be appropriate to employ judicial discretion. Obviously, we're not going to agree about this, but I'll put a note on my calendar to follow it up in 2019 and see what the big secret was.

steven2012 12y ago
As I said, India is a highly corrupt country, and their judicial system is not worthy of discussion. In a country where bribing of police officers is commonplace, I'm sure everything is open for discussion. All you are doing is spreading FUD. If you were concerned about innocent people's reputations, then you would want all trials to be "in camera" with no information for 5 years. There isn't even a single example where having an open trial plunged a country into political instability with the likes of what you describe, let alone from a trial in another country. It's pure nonsense. "But but but... it COULD happen!" No, it can't ever happen. It's never happened and it never will. There is no justification to censor the press for any reason, especially political censorship.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  You don't have to approve of India's judicial system to acknowledge the fact that it hold some kinds of trials in camera, which was all I asserted. "But but but... it COULD happen!" No, it can't ever happen. It's never happened and it never will. Really? Here's an example of a trial that resulted in the collapse of a government, the assassination of a central figure, and eventual reversal of the verdicts by a higher court that found serious irregularities in how the trial had been conducted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kastner But carry on, you clearly know far more about this stuff than I do.
  - steven2012 12y ago
    Interesting example but still further nonsense. A no confidence vote isn't political instability, that's exactly how the government should be working, ie political stability, especially when you have coalition governments. A government losing power in a no confidence vote happens all the time. That's like saying the US was plunged into ypolitical instability when George Bush Sr. lost his second term because of the "no new taxes" misstep. Political instability is what happened in Syria, Thailand, Egypt, etc over the last few years. Contrast this to Canada where the same coalition government broke down and cause several elections over a span of a few years. But an educated perso would never consider Canada to be politically unstable.