5 ms·

Um. Isn't encrypted calling on iPhones already provided by FaceTime Audio?

by nardi 12y ago

therealmarv 12y ago
I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users.
- nardi 12y ago
  > I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. "The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1... > And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users. Ah yeah, I thought Signal was only for iPhone, based on the title. Should have read the first paragraph more closely.
  - carbocation 12y ago
    >This product, Signal, seems to only be for iPhones. So it's even more limited. It appears to interoperate with RedPhone, an Android app by the same authors.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    You don't know what you don't know - or in other words, have you seen the latest research on iOS surveillance mechanisms? There could be other "undocumented" stuff that makes the encryption of Facetime Audio irrelevant.
  - bdesimone 12y ago
    In the very same doc you quote, they also say of iMessage: "Apple does not log messages or attachments, and their contents are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." Which has been refuted several times.
spellboots 12y ago
Yes, but it is not secure
- nardi 12y ago
  "The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." [1] [1] https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1...
  - spellboots 12y ago
    This does not mean that it's secure. See for example http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refuted-again-7000022105/ http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refut... and http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-re...
sp332 12y ago
They claim to use SIP to establish an SRTP connection with AES-256. But I don't know any way to verify that the data is being encrypted well or sent only to the intended recipient. https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1...
- nardi 12y ago
  > But I don't know any way to verify that the data is being encrypted well or sent only to the intended recipient. Couldn't you say the same thing about Signal? Both parties claim to use end-to-end encryption.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    If you don't have a SAS phrase or some other way to aurally verify the other party, you can never be secure against a MITM. Signal does this, while I doubt it's available in FaceTime audio.
e1ven 12y ago
There is value in being able to call people who do not have iOS devices. This is more similar to SilentCircle, but without a monthly fee.
bdesimone 12y ago
Yes. And you should probably assume that their claims of end-to-end encryption are about as solid as they were for iMessage. http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-re... http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages-ars-deciphers-end-to-end-crypto-claims/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-... http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refuted-again-7000022105/ http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refut...
- nardi 12y ago
  Didn't Apple debunk that debunking themselves in February, when they released the iOS Security doc? [1] According to Apple, each device's private key is generated locally and never leaves the device, making it impossible to MITM your messages. From page 20: "For each key pair, the private keys are saved in the device’s keychain and the public keys are sent to Apple’s directory service (IDS), where they are associated with the user’s phone number or email address, along with the device’s APNs address." [1] http://images.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf http://images.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Fe...
  - thecoffman 12y ago
    That doesn't make it impossible to MITM - Apple still controls the keyserver. When I ask for nardi's public key, they can give me theirs, I encrypt it with that key and send it. They use their private key to decrypt it, store it, and then encrypt it with your actual public key and forward it along, neither of us any the wiser.
    - nardi 12y ago
      Ah yes, of course. It's missing secure identification.

Um. Isn't encrypted calling on iPhones already provided by FaceTime Audio?

by nardi 12y ago

Um. Isn't encrypted calling on iPhones already provided by FaceTime Audio?

therealmarv 12y ago

I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users.

nardi 12y ago
> I'm sure there is no real end-to-end encryption. "The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1... > And you can only do that between iPhone/Mac users. Ah yeah, I thought Signal was only for iPhone, based on the title. Should have read the first paragraph more closely.
- carbocation 12y ago
  >This product, Signal, seems to only be for iPhones. So it's even more limited. It appears to interoperate with RedPhone, an Android app by the same authors.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  You don't know what you don't know - or in other words, have you seen the latest research on iOS surveillance mechanisms? There could be other "undocumented" stuff that makes the encryption of Facetime Audio irrelevant.
- bdesimone 12y ago
  In the very same doc you quote, they also say of iMessage: "Apple does not log messages or attachments, and their contents are protected by end-to-end encryption so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." Which has been refuted several times.

spellboots 12y ago

Yes, but it is not secure

nardi 12y ago
"The audio/video contents of FaceTime calls are protected by end-to-end encryption, so no one but the sender and receiver can access them. Apple cannot decrypt the data." [1] [1] https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1...
- spellboots 12y ago
  This does not mean that it's secure. See for example http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refuted-again-7000022105/ http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refut... and http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-re...

sp332 12y ago

They claim to use SIP to establish an SRTP connection with AES-256. But I don't know any way to verify that the data is being encrypted well or sent only to the intended recipient. https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf https://ssl.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb1...

nardi 12y ago
> But I don't know any way to verify that the data is being encrypted well or sent only to the intended recipient. Couldn't you say the same thing about Signal? Both parties claim to use end-to-end encryption.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  If you don't have a SAS phrase or some other way to aurally verify the other party, you can never be secure against a MITM. Signal does this, while I doubt it's available in FaceTime audio.

e1ven 12y ago

There is value in being able to call people who do not have iOS devices. This is more similar to SilentCircle, but without a monthly fee.

bdesimone 12y ago

Yes. And you should probably assume that their claims of end-to-end encryption are about as solid as they were for iMessage. http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/06/can-apple-re... http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-imessages-ars-deciphers-end-to-end-crypto-claims/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/06/can-apple-read-your-... http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refuted-again-7000022105/ http://www.zdnet.com/apples-imessage-encryption-claims-refut...

nardi 12y ago
Didn't Apple debunk that debunking themselves in February, when they released the iOS Security doc? [1] According to Apple, each device's private key is generated locally and never leaves the device, making it impossible to MITM your messages. From page 20: "For each key pair, the private keys are saved in the device’s keychain and the public keys are sent to Apple’s directory service (IDS), where they are associated with the user’s phone number or email address, along with the device’s APNs address." [1] http://images.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Feb14.pdf http://images.apple.com/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Security_Fe...
- thecoffman 12y ago
  That doesn't make it impossible to MITM - Apple still controls the keyserver. When I ask for nardi's public key, they can give me theirs, I encrypt it with that key and send it. They use their private key to decrypt it, store it, and then encrypt it with your actual public key and forward it along, neither of us any the wiser.
  - nardi 12y ago
    Ah yes, of course. It's missing secure identification.