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Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later
- roberthahn 12y agoHas anyone read this book? What were your thoughts on it?
- iamjdg 12y agoI have. I loved it. I mean no book is perfect, but it is well written and researched. What makes it most interesting is when you consider the state of the world when it was written (1981) and how much of it is still relevant today.
- nmcfarl 12y agoMy dad loved it in the '80s, and I read it some time in the late 80s when I was in my tweens. I probably didn't understand a lot, and I've forgotten a lot, but that map is good, and I do use it a short hand a lot in my thinking to this day. Though I do think that some peopleº treat it as more than a short hand - and like all stereotypes it can cause more harm than good when actually believed. º I recently heard a barista talking passionately about "Freeing Cascadiaºº" ººNot literally one of the 9 nations, but a related idea
- pnathan 12y agoCascadia the idea appears to be growing in the Seattle region. Can't say I entirely disagree: the PNW does have a definite bent to its culture (I've lived in PNW^H^H^HCascadia for about a year now - loving it so far).
- HillRat 12y agoIt's an interesting work and well worth reading, although it's more than a bit broad-brush in its discriminants. Ferligoj, Batagelj and Doreian did an analysis a few years ago using relational-constraint clustering of counties with Census data and found that the "Nine Nations" thesis actually conforms quite well to clustering by race, age, land usage and economic data.
- AnimalMuppet 12y agoI read it, back in the day. In fact, I think I still have a copy. I thought it made a lot of sense. I mean, you can take anything too far, and any place has a spectrum of people in it. Even so, as the author said, events happen differently in different parts of the country, and the difference is something you can describe.
- gyardley 12y agoYes, I've read it. It's possible to quibble with how some of the cultural areas are delimited. I would've drawn the lines differently - I think the divisions in Colin Woodard's more recent "American Nations" are more accurate (although also imperfect). The main takeaway is that the USA is incredibly culturally diverse, which is why it's so difficult to get things done on the federal level and why it'd probably be better served by even less centralization in government policy. I found this book valuable, but for me it was preaching to the choir - it's pretty compatible with my own politics, and meshes with my own experience living in each of California, New York, and Texas.
- kens 12y agoI read the book when it came out and found it thought-provoking enough to remember it 33 years later. If you're only familiar with part of North America, it's a good look at how different various regions are. It's probably too dated now for me to recommend it. I found Garreau's other book "Edge City" to have more impact on my views in the long run, and I'd recommend it.
- lilsunnybee 12y agoI read it a few years back. It provides pretty detailed and interesting explanations for naming certain cultural regions and drawing divisions the way they are. But even in '81, and especially now, there are a lot more aberrations than Garreau sees fit to point out. Myself, and others, have highlighted some of these unacknowledged aberrations elsewhere in the thread. Some aberrations might be large enough to even designate new "Nations". But for someone living outside the US, or anyone else unfamiliar with the general cultural differences and boundaries within the US, the book would still be worth reading and learning from even today, even if it paints in broad strokes.
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- raldi 12y agoA nicer name for the "empty quarter" would be Marlboro Country.
- s_q_b 12y agoVery cool idea. Although the recent oil and natural gas booms are fast transforming "The Empty Quarter" into "Extractopia" where oil, gas, logging, and mineral extraction, which are already the main industries, are going to become an increasingly important driver of overall North American economic growth.
- cratering 12y agoI completely agree except I feel that the "topia" suffix implies it's some sort of paradise. Given the controversy around environmental damage, something more ominous like "gasland" might be better.
- Tiktaalik 12y agoAlready the case with Alberta, which is a major driving force in the Canadian economy, on track to surpass Quebec as the second largest provincial economy. Feels like a bit of a slight to lump it into an "Empty Quarter."
- electromagnetic 12y agoThe effect is spanning too. As Alberta has sucked up the trades for the associated housing booms, pay has jumped in Saskatchewan, and now is jumping in Manitoba. Ontario hasn't really seen it yet, but they've started advertising for skilled and unskilled trades here too. As someone trying to start a business it's actually a great time. 5 years ago work was getting poached by fly-by-nighters who did shoddy work for cheap prices, but now it seems they've cleared out and headed west.
- toddsiegel 12y agoSimilar to the 7 States of Facebook which surfaced a few years ago. http://gigaom.com/2010/02/08/the-7-somewhat-united-states-of-facebook/ http://gigaom.com/2010/02/08/the-7-somewhat-united-states-of... Culturally some of these boundaries seem more accurate.
- jandrewrogers 12y agoYes, that definitely captures some of the major culture boundaries more accurately. For example, no one would conflate the culture of California with the culture of Cascadia despite a few superficial similarities (like eco awareness). My takeaway from the "Nine Nations" map is that it was created by people that have never actually lived or spent significant time all over the regions of the US, never mind North America, to have a frame of reference for the actual cultural differences. Some of the supposed cultural similarities are apparently based on popular caricatures of the rest of the US I see in places like urban New England. You can carve up North America on major cultural boundaries but it looks a lot more like the Facebook map.
- jessaustin 12y agoYes, as distressing as it may be to me personally to live in "Greater Texas" (I thought we left the Big 12?), the "Nine" definitely screws up by splitting Texas into three pieces, the largest of which has a "capital" in Los Angeles. Had Garreau ever been to Texas when he wrote the book? I've lived there, and the conformity of certain assumptions and habits across the state and across cultural and income groups is sometimes actually a bit unsettling.
- freehunter 12y agoThen again, the actual capital of Texas is Austin, so it's not that far from reality.
- lilsunnybee 12y agoAustin seems to qualify as a separate city-state though, rather than being representative of Greater Texas as a whole.
- taneliv 12y agoI am not from Americas, and had never heard of the concept of Nine Nations. If you're equally lost with some of the terms ("Dixie"? "The Foundry"?) or the overall theory, this sheds some light on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations (but unfortunately does not provide links for some of the regions). Anyone know of a better online exposition?
- keithly 12y ago"Dixie" generally refers to states south of the Mason-Dixon survey line where slavery was legal. This map's concept of Dixie includes some areas above that line and excludes some areas inside it, like most of Texas and Missouri. "The Foundry" seems like a euphemism for the more commonly used term "Rust Belt." It's an area that traditionally has had lots of heavy industry, but has largely been in economic decline in the last 20-30 years.
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- lilsunnybee 12y agoThe book itself would probably be the best source for detailed descriptions of the different regions. It has to be available as an e-book too. Worth buying if you'd like to learn more about general cultural regions and boundaries in the US, or pirating if you don't have the funds. Just remember that even 3 decades ago it had some inaccuracies, many of which are pointed out in this thread. But it is a good primer, not very long, and a light, entertaining read, in my opinion.
- bostonpete 12y agoI'd carve off an additional nation stretching from Boston to D.C. Putting NYC in a declining industrial nation with Detroit as its capital seems puzzling even for 30 years ago...
- michaelochurch 12y agoI think Brooklyn was considered Foundry but Manhattan is its own city-state. Same with DC. "Mex-America" is a weird one (and why is the capital in the U.S.?) too. If Minnesota and Michigan are different nations, then Mexico (which is much more tribally, ethnically, and socioeconomically heterogeneous) cannot reasonably be cast as one bloc. Oaxaca, Mexico DF, the Yucatan, and Juarez are all very different places (just to get started).
- AnimalMuppet 12y agoYou're right on about Manhattan. But MexAmerica was not all of Mexico. In Mexico, it was measured by US influence, just as in the US, it was measured by Mexican influence. (IIRC, one measure he gave for the southern border of MexAmerica was where you stopped being able to receive Spanish-language radio stations that were broadcast from the US.)
- bostonpete 12y ago> Manhattan is its own city-state. Same with DC. Yes, I see now that's described on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Nations That makes sense then I guess. I initially questioned lumping Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island in with New England, but from what I know of those areas, it's probably not a bad choice -- they fit with southern NE as well as most of Maine does.
- lilsunnybee 12y agoAnd Brooklyn, with all the hipsters and many other people who couldn't afford to live in Manhattan, is also Foundry, same as upper Manhattan? Denver/Boulder and SLC hardly have much in common with the rest of the Empty Quarter either. I have another reply in this thread explaining more about that. And where does Las Vegas fit in? Nevada as a state is very liberal in some ways, much more so than other states in the Empty Quarter.
- michaelochurch 12y agoEcotopia (or Cascadia) has split irrevocably. Silicon Valley is not part of it. Far Northern California (which is Oregon-like in climate and culture) might be, but that's sparsely inhabited. Silicon Valley (an emerging city state with severe, criminal levels of private sector corruption in addition to public incompetence, both forces producing a housing crisis) is paper-belt in denial. It will never admit so, but the negative aspects of California (mostly due not to locals, but to an area systematically attracting the worst of the East-- greedy businessmen who aren't capable enough to play with the big boys in NYC, so they move west) have moved north. The trash that the elite used to dump on Los Angeles is now being dumped on San Francisco, as failed McKinseys become VCs and founders. It's definitely not Mex-America, either.
- ggchappell 12y agoI think this phenomenon happens all over. Cities -- and regions within cities -- can have their own peculiar culture, while the culture of rural areas varies on much longer distance scales. Because of this, I suggest that the idea that North American is best thought of in terms of regions might be an unhelpful one. OTOH, the evidence from Facebook apparently suggests otherwise: http://petewarden.com/2010/02/06/how-to-split-up-the-us/ http://petewarden.com/2010/02/06/how-to-split-up-the-us/
- huherto 12y agoI loved this one. I feel is really helping me understand the USA. http://books.google.com/books/about/American_Nations.html?id=Sb40EosBr90C http://books.google.com/books/about/American_Nations.html?id...
- cesarbs 12y agoWhy "Empty Quarter"? What's the reason behind that name?
- icegreentea 12y agoThe population and population density in those areas are incredibly low. At least on the Canada side, the only two major cities in that area are Edmonton and Calgary, with a combined population of less than 2 million.
- soperj 12y agoThat's not true. Edmonton and Calgary have each been over a million for a while now. Alberta has also been the fastest growing province for probably a decade now.
- lilsunnybee 12y agoAlso Denver/Boulder and SLC on the US side are not exactly low population density.
- _ihaque 12y agoProbably from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub'_al_Khali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub'_al_Khali
- Perceval 12y agoVery few people live there: http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/downloads/maps/grump-v1/grump-v1-population-density/northamericadens.jpg http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/downloads/maps/grump-v1/gru...
- pacofvf 12y agoAs Mexican I can give you an update about the Five Nations of Mexico: http://www.csuchico.edu/~sbrady/357fivenationsofmexico.pdf http://www.csuchico.edu/~sbrady/357fivenationsofmexico.pdf (1987) > "More than three decades after publication, two things amaze me: how little the boundaries have changed and how much chatter this idea is getting recently. " This is also true for the Mexican Nations, although the Mexican nations started a new experiment called "Democracy" in the 2000, they chose a tri-party system. Also boundaries have changed , Mexamerica have expanded north of the border defined 30 years ago, but also lose territory to it's southern neighbor, New Spain. In a way the Mexamerican nation is moving to the North. Thanks to NAFTA, Mexamerica economy became richer and interlaced. Mexamerica became politically powerful in the mid-2000's just to see lose its leverage because of the great recession and the drug war, being politically neutralized in 2012 elections. Although things are returning to normality Mexamerica saw many of the bloodiest battles in the Drug war. Once the richest of the Nations, its economic supremacy it's being contested by Metromex and New Spain. New Spain saw great progress, it diversified its crops thanks to NAFTA. It created a new industrial corridor comprising the cities of León, Aguascalientes, Irapuato, Celaya, Salamanca which many were part of Mexamerica but now are tied economically and culturally to New Spain and now are home to Nissan, Texas Instruments, General Motors, and many other's factories. IT companies like Intel, IBM, Freescale, HP, Oracle, Hitachi, etc. built its regional headquarters at Guadalajara. By not relying in the demand of Metromex, it gained the political power it always wanted in the Federation congress. Metromex saw it's political power now reduced to a distant memory. The middle class not ceased to grow and now is one of the biggest markets for many industries worldwide. It transformed its economy from an industry oriented to a service oriented. It bulldozed its factories to make space for skyscrapers and transformed it's colony to the west, Toluca, to it's new industrial hub. It reached the 8th place on the 2008 PwC Richest Cities ranking. In a few years it will become a true cosmopolitan megalopolis stretching to Queretaro to the north, Puebla to the east, Cuernavaca to the south and Toluca to the west. Club Mex received new territorial additions, Punta Mita from New Spain, Los Cabos from Mexamerica, the whole south pacific and Caribbean coast from South Mexico. Although it hasn't gained the political power it deserves, Club Mex grew to became 30% of the Federation GDP. Club Mex future is the most uncertain, climate change and the pressure from the organized crime pose a great threat to many of its inhabitants which many are immigrants from the First world and South America. South Mexico is still stuck in the past, the massive immigration in the 80's and 90's to the United States had left many towns deserted, while many others only inhabited with old people and children. Its economy was destroyed by the NAFTA, unable to compete to North-American farmers it has tried to become the new Club Mex with mixed results, one of the most notable success is Chiapas.
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- dugmartin 12y agoThe map splits Illinois pretty well. I was born and raised in northern Illinois until I was 10, moved to southern Illinois and then lived and worked in Chicago after grad school. It is a very different state depending on where you live. I just went back to my 25th high school reunion and after living away for 20 years I was surprised at the southern "accents" some of my friends had.
- tdaltonc 12y ago"American Nations: a History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures" is a more historically rigorous look at this idea. I highly recommend the book.
- jqm 12y agoI find this just dumb. Of course you can make arbitrary divisions but that doesn't mean they are relevant. Not that the US can't be divided, but these lines aren't it. The central-southern part of Florida has little in common with Kentucky nowadays. Phoenix, Las Vegas, Denver and Salt Lake are large metropolitan areas with cultures very different from rural Alaska.
- lilsunnybee 12y agoLived in the Denver metro area and it definitely couldn't be considered to have that much in common with most of the rest of "The Empty Quarter", besides a cultural preference for rugged individualism and limited government interference in personal affairs. Denver has an impressive light rail system, and Denver / Boulder are responsible for Colorado being one of two states first in legalizing Marijuana and the first in allowing public sales (though Washington state shouldn't be far behind once regulations are finalized). Polyamory doesn't have much public acceptance but is fairly common in the area. Programs and policies concerning homelessness are very progressive compared to most anywhere else in the US. Denver/Boulder metro area, and to a lesser extent other communities along the Colorado Front Range, have much more in common culturally with SLC than Grand Junction, CO (the state's western capital) or any of the rest of the supposed "Empty Quarter". Peter Warden's Mormonia (if including Denver), being completely surrounded by the Nomadic West, is a more accurate division, though the name is a little inaccurate and not especially representative (at least half of SLC isn't mormon, and neither is most of the Colorado Front Range, though Colorado Springs is very evangelical). If Joel Garreau still thinks Denver/Boulder and SLC are "Empty Quarter", and at least not aberrations, he doesn't understand the culture very well. It's almost as bad as placing most of NYC within "The Foundry".
- crag 12y agoIt's true about Florida. Drive up the east coast, once you drive though Palm Beach county (heading north) and into Martin county, you'd swear you were in Georgia. It's a sudden change. Even environmental. Since zone 10 (topical) ends somewhere near on the border of Palm Beach and in Martin counties. Edit: Correction. Zone 10/9 are expanding. Which makes sense considering global warming. See http://www.garden.bsewall.com/topics/hardiness/maps.htm http://www.garden.bsewall.com/topics/hardiness/maps.htm
- lilsunnybee 12y agoPersonally i would hardly consider Tampa and Orlando as Dixie. Slightly conservative? certainly. Though not Southern and more an odd mish-mash of liberal and conservative, mostly pro-development, but with an odd pro-environmental strain in the Tampa area. Gainesville, FL is an odd duck miniature city-state: half-Southern, half-hippie values, similar to Athens, GA.
- crag 12y agoYeah the west coast of Florida has always been a little hard to predict. Another good example is Sarasota - which is 1/3 southern, 1/3 hippe and a 1/3 retired. But in the east, generally, once you are in Martin and up - it's southern. That's doesn't mean there aren't nice towns up the coast - Stuart, Verio, Coco Beach. Daytona, etc etc.