5 ms·

Jesse Jackson: Tech diversity is next civil rights step

11 points by onetimeusename 12y ago

argumentum 12y ago
Talk about fiddling with statistics to make an argument: "The result is sobering: Men make up 62% to 70% of the staffs of Twitter, Google, Facebook, Yahoo and LinkedIn, while whites and Asians comprise 88% to 91%, according to company data released in the past two months. Their dominance is highest in computer programming and other tech jobs that tend to pay the most." vs "Of Twitter's U.S. employees, only 3% are Hispanic and 5% black, but those groups along with Asian Americans account for 41% of its U.S. users." As Christopher Hitchens said, you can get away with anything if you put a "reverend" in front of your name.
- eropple 12y ago
  I get what you're saying, but my intuition is that the numbers would still be silly-and-wrong if you could omit Asians from the user numbers they're giving. And I say "if you could" because my guess, which may be wrong but given the way these breakdowns usually work I don't think it's a bad one, is that they didn't have Twitter user data available to them in a more granular fashion. So I'm more inclined to let that one go.
  - argumentum 12y ago
    My intuition is the same .. I totally agree there are underrepresented groups .. but using numbers like that does not inspire confidence. More interesting numbers would be the % of engineering applicants (which are likely not available) or representation in undergraduate programs vs in industry employment. That would help isolate where the problem lies, which my intuition tells me is earlier than in industry.
- muglug 12y ago
  I'm not a huge supporter of Rev. Jackson, but the lack of Hispanic and African-American groups in tech reflects a paucity of opportunity for historically poverty-stricken communities in America. And race is self-evidently a factor. A large number of employees from the Indian subcontinent adds to a company's diversity, but doesn't make tech more welcoming to those Americans whose parents were treated as second-class citizens for much of their lives.
  - swampthing 12y ago
    Minor point, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply otherwise, but many Asian-American (broadly defined) communities are historically poverty-stricken, and its members have been treated as second-class citizens for much of their lives. Just wanted to add that in case anyone inferred otherwise from your comment!
Impossible 12y ago
When I was around 12 I was at the Bud Billiken parade in Chicago and Jesse Jackson told my dad he should buy me a laptop. My dad has never bought me a laptop :), but even then (1995?) he was promoting diversity in tech in a way.
kumarm 12y ago
How about making sure Professional Sports (NBA, MLB, NFL etc..) has diversity? I am not saying we should not strive for diversity but looking for diversity when its convenient for us and ignoring other times would only make one look phony.
- aaronbrethorst 12y ago
  I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but... Facebook[1] alone employs more people than the sum of pro NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL players. Facebook: 6,818 NFL[2]: 1,696 MLB[3]: 1,280 NHL[4]: 1,500 NBA[5]: 450 Facebook Employees - Pro Sports Players = 1,892 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook [2] http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl.html http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl.html [3] http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_players_are_in_MLB http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_players_are_in_MLB [4] https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100104123254AA3jTeI https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100104123254A... [5] http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_total_number_of_players_in_the_NBA http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_total_number_of_player...
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  We already have. At one time pro sports were segregated or whites-only. MLB was effectively segregated until 1947, the NBA was integrated in 1950; football was never formally segregated as far as I am aware. Some argue that hockey is still effectively segregated, though you could equally argue that ice skating is simply more prominent in certain Euro-American demographics. I presume you're referring to the prevalence of black athletes in some sports, particularly basketball where thy are way over-represented. But that is in fact the result of meritocracy. This is so dreadful to some people that last year there was an attempt to form a whites-only basketball league, although the chances of this going anywhere are negligible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_players_in_American_professional_football http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_players_in_American_profe... http://africanamericanhistorysp2014.voices.wooster.edu/racism-in-a-segregated-sport/ http://africanamericanhistorysp2014.voices.wooster.edu/racis... http://www.thenation.com/article/all-white-basketball-league-bringing-segregation-back http://www.thenation.com/article/all-white-basketball-league... I don't have a firm opinion about diversity in tech companies, but your comment suggests you're unaware of the historical context.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jagawhowho 12y ago
Are tech companies turning people away due to their race? Or are there simply not enough black programmers? If the latter, then diversity for the sake of it is going to be... strange.
- dghf 12y ago
  The National Bureau of Economic Research did an experiment where they sent in the same résumé for the same job under "white-sounding" and "black-sounding names": the "white" names got about 50% more call-backs than the "black" names. [1] Granted, this wasn't aimed at tech companies. [1] http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
qwerta 12y ago
Why are asians put into same group as whites? They are minority and are still badly discriminated, mostly at university acceptance.
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  That's news. At Universities here they make up a disproportionate amount of students (ie. a larger percentage of the student body is Asian than would be expected given their percentage of the overall population)...
  - QuantumChaos 12y ago
    They would be an even bigger percentage if not for discrimination. The US used to have quotas for Jews in many universities, as did the Soviet Union. The unofficial quota system for Asians is no different.
  - qwerta 12y ago
    Many students in US are from abroad, in that case Asians are 60% of world population. Some data about %subj%: http://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians http://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-d...
- jagawhowho 12y ago
  Tech is brimming with diversity so he can't make a good statistical argument without lumping whites and Asians together as one race. His goal isn't racial diversity, it is the advancement of his race only. Even at the expense of other minorities like Asians.
lnanek2 12y ago
I think there is a good argument for diversity in tech. This article is really, really, bad however. Look at one number they mention: > Men make up 62% to 70% of the staffs of Twitter, Google, Facebook, Yahoo and LinkedIn, while whites and Asians comprise 88% to 91% Then this number: > Of Twitter's U.S. employees, only 3% are Hispanic and 5% black, but those groups along with Asian Americans account for 41% of its U.S. users. So Asians count against Twitter as employees and against Twitter as audience, that just makes no sense.
37prime 12y ago
Would you go to a hospital where the doctors are hired based on ethnic diversity and quotas instead of skills?
- jessedhillon 12y ago
  Because those are the only two options right?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  My last three doctors have been minorities, two of them were WoC, and they are all much better than the two white male goofuses I went to before.
  - astrange 12y ago
    > two of them were WoC How do you know? Is it your decision or theirs? If it's yours, would you consider (without looking) people from Kyrgyzstan, Okinawa, or Catalonia to count? Thailand? Regardless of those answers, what do you think it "means"? I'm just so curious!
mistermfc 12y ago
While improving diversity in tech is certainly very important, I think there are still a great many needs to be resolved before we can consider it the next step in civil rights. Even if you consider same-sex marriage a done deal as the final pieces start to fall in the place, trans* people often can't even use the bathroom of their gender, for fucks sake. And then also there's voter-restriction laws, trying to revert progress the civil rights movement has made. So yeah, diversity in tech is important, but to call it "the next step in civil rights" seems pretty disingenuous to me.
duncan_bayne 12y ago
> "The government has a role to play" in ensuring that women and minorities are fairly represented in the tech workforce, Jackson told a USA TODAY editorial board meeting. He said the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission needs to examine Silicon Valley's employment contracts. Looks like Jackson is trying to rebrand 'affirmative action'. Doesn't matter, though: it's still a violation of the rights of almost all concerned.
b6 12y ago
Specifically considering race in hiring decisions, however well-intentioned, is racism. We won't get to where we want to be by skillfully and fairly applying racism -- we'll get there by not caring about race. I grew up in a rural area in the southern US where racism was common and overt. I can very honestly and sincerely say that I find this more insidious form of racism, which is so widely accepted, to be much more disturbing and frightening.
- muglug 12y ago
  Sure, then conduct interviews entirely blindly without mentioning any biographical information that betrays one's gender, race or social background, and that might subconsciously sway an interviewer one way or the other. Also, be sure to conduct the interviews in a society where the interviewee has been brought up on an entirely level playing field, so they have had exactly the same opportunity to formulate and achieve their goals as others with their same aptitude. Edit: see this Princeton study: http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml showing a correlation between blind auditions and a dramatic shift in the gender composition of orchestras in the 70s and 80s.
- jessedhillon 12y ago
  You know what else -- if you find that certain frequencies in the music you're listening to are over-represented, they make these earplugs which can dampen only those frequencies. The song isn't anymore equalized coming out of the speaker, but as long as you've got your earplugs in you won't know the difference. I can very honestly and sincerely say that I find this more insidious form of racism, which is so widely accepted, to be much more disturbing and frightening. I can see why you would say that, because nobody reasonable accepts the open racism you grew up with, whereas -- if you think diversity efforts are racism and sexism -- then it seems to you that there is unspoken acceptance of race/gender-based discrimination. Consider that, a) your solution would require everyone to be ignorant of race, not just you, b) not all racism is overt and visible, or even intentional, and therefore well-meaning people can still end up perpetuating racial biases because they can't correct for what they don't see c) supposing that you, on the basis of your race, were a member of a historically empowered group -- any efforts to reverse that advantage would feel to your group like a loss of power, which is naturally against your near-term interests d) supposing again that racial biases exist and have disempowered certain groups, over time, and empowered others -- the advantages would have had a cumulative effect over generations, as this is how advantage (in terms of wealth, connections, access, transmitted/received knowledge) is often-observed to accrue. In that case simply putting on the blinders would be like dragging one runner down with a 100 lb weight for half the race, then removing the weight and simply expecting the rest of the race to be fair.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
varlife 12y ago
I respect Mr. Jackson's earlier work, but he's becoming what he fought against. Nowhere in his article were educational opportunities promoted or discussed. Instead, an industry was shamed simply for the color of their skin.
Aloha 12y ago
You cant make tech diversity by fiat however - it takes more people from those minorities showing interest an in essence, showing up. We are well represented by Southeast Asia, Asia, and I'd argue by women too (though probably not enough) - but again, IMO, the limits are a lack of candidates with a tech background or the drive/interest to learn (as well as good training programs for them to build real experience in), not by any inherent racism. FWIW, I'm in Seattle, and YMMV depending on which region of the world/country you're in.

Talk about fiddling with statistics to make an argument: "The result is sobering: Men make up 62% to 70% of the staffs of Twitter, Google, Facebook, Yahoo and LinkedIn, while whites and Asians comprise 88% to 91%, according to company data released in the past two months. Their dominance is highest in computer programming and other tech jobs that tend to pay the most." vs "Of Twitter's U.S. employees, only 3% are Hispanic and 5% black, but those groups along with Asian Americans account for 41% of its U.S. users." As Christopher Hitchens said, you can get away with anything if you put a "reverend" in front of your name.

eropple 12y ago
I get what you're saying, but my intuition is that the numbers would still be silly-and-wrong if you could omit Asians from the user numbers they're giving. And I say "if you could" because my guess, which may be wrong but given the way these breakdowns usually work I don't think it's a bad one, is that they didn't have Twitter user data available to them in a more granular fashion. So I'm more inclined to let that one go.
- argumentum 12y ago
  My intuition is the same .. I totally agree there are underrepresented groups .. but using numbers like that does not inspire confidence. More interesting numbers would be the % of engineering applicants (which are likely not available) or representation in undergraduate programs vs in industry employment. That would help isolate where the problem lies, which my intuition tells me is earlier than in industry.
muglug 12y ago
I'm not a huge supporter of Rev. Jackson, but the lack of Hispanic and African-American groups in tech reflects a paucity of opportunity for historically poverty-stricken communities in America. And race is self-evidently a factor. A large number of employees from the Indian subcontinent adds to a company's diversity, but doesn't make tech more welcoming to those Americans whose parents were treated as second-class citizens for much of their lives.
- swampthing 12y ago
  Minor point, and I'm sure you didn't mean to imply otherwise, but many Asian-American (broadly defined) communities are historically poverty-stricken, and its members have been treated as second-class citizens for much of their lives. Just wanted to add that in case anyone inferred otherwise from your comment!

Impossible 12y ago

When I was around 12 I was at the Bud Billiken parade in Chicago and Jesse Jackson told my dad he should buy me a laptop. My dad has never bought me a laptop :), but even then (1995?) he was promoting diversity in tech in a way.

kumarm 12y ago

How about making sure Professional Sports (NBA, MLB, NFL etc..) has diversity? I am not saying we should not strive for diversity but looking for diversity when its convenient for us and ignoring other times would only make one look phony.

aaronbrethorst 12y ago
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but... Facebook[1] alone employs more people than the sum of pro NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL players. Facebook: 6,818 NFL[2]: 1,696 MLB[3]: 1,280 NHL[4]: 1,500 NBA[5]: 450 Facebook Employees - Pro Sports Players = 1,892 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook [2] http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl.html http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl.html [3] http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_players_are_in_MLB http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_players_are_in_MLB [4] https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100104123254AA3jTeI https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100104123254A... [5] http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_total_number_of_players_in_the_NBA http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_total_number_of_player...
anigbrowl 12y ago
We already have. At one time pro sports were segregated or whites-only. MLB was effectively segregated until 1947, the NBA was integrated in 1950; football was never formally segregated as far as I am aware. Some argue that hockey is still effectively segregated, though you could equally argue that ice skating is simply more prominent in certain Euro-American demographics. I presume you're referring to the prevalence of black athletes in some sports, particularly basketball where thy are way over-represented. But that is in fact the result of meritocracy. This is so dreadful to some people that last year there was an attempt to form a whites-only basketball league, although the chances of this going anywhere are negligible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_color_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_players_in_American_professional_football http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_players_in_American_profe... http://africanamericanhistorysp2014.voices.wooster.edu/racism-in-a-segregated-sport/ http://africanamericanhistorysp2014.voices.wooster.edu/racis... http://www.thenation.com/article/all-white-basketball-league-bringing-segregation-back http://www.thenation.com/article/all-white-basketball-league... I don't have a firm opinion about diversity in tech companies, but your comment suggests you're unaware of the historical context.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jagawhowho 12y ago

Are tech companies turning people away due to their race? Or are there simply not enough black programmers? If the latter, then diversity for the sake of it is going to be... strange.

dghf 12y ago
The National Bureau of Economic Research did an experiment where they sent in the same résumé for the same job under "white-sounding" and "black-sounding names": the "white" names got about 50% more call-backs than the "black" names. [1] Granted, this wasn't aimed at tech companies. [1] http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

qwerta 12y ago

Why are asians put into same group as whites? They are minority and are still badly discriminated, mostly at university acceptance.

Mikeb85 12y ago
That's news. At Universities here they make up a disproportionate amount of students (ie. a larger percentage of the student body is Asian than would be expected given their percentage of the overall population)...
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  They would be an even bigger percentage if not for discrimination. The US used to have quotas for Jews in many universities, as did the Soviet Union. The unofficial quota system for Asians is no different.
- qwerta 12y ago
  Many students in US are from abroad, in that case Asians are 60% of world population. Some data about %subj%: http://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians http://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-d...
jagawhowho 12y ago
Tech is brimming with diversity so he can't make a good statistical argument without lumping whites and Asians together as one race. His goal isn't racial diversity, it is the advancement of his race only. Even at the expense of other minorities like Asians.

lnanek2 12y ago

I think there is a good argument for diversity in tech. This article is really, really, bad however. Look at one number they mention: > Men make up 62% to 70% of the staffs of Twitter, Google, Facebook, Yahoo and LinkedIn, while whites and Asians comprise 88% to 91% Then this number: > Of Twitter's U.S. employees, only 3% are Hispanic and 5% black, but those groups along with Asian Americans account for 41% of its U.S. users. So Asians count against Twitter as employees and against Twitter as audience, that just makes no sense.

37prime 12y ago

Would you go to a hospital where the doctors are hired based on ethnic diversity and quotas instead of skills?

jessedhillon 12y ago
Because those are the only two options right?
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
My last three doctors have been minorities, two of them were WoC, and they are all much better than the two white male goofuses I went to before.
- astrange 12y ago
  > two of them were WoC How do you know? Is it your decision or theirs? If it's yours, would you consider (without looking) people from Kyrgyzstan, Okinawa, or Catalonia to count? Thailand? Regardless of those answers, what do you think it "means"? I'm just so curious!

mistermfc 12y ago

While improving diversity in tech is certainly very important, I think there are still a great many needs to be resolved before we can consider it the next step in civil rights. Even if you consider same-sex marriage a done deal as the final pieces start to fall in the place, trans* people often can't even use the bathroom of their gender, for fucks sake. And then also there's voter-restriction laws, trying to revert progress the civil rights movement has made. So yeah, diversity in tech is important, but to call it "the next step in civil rights" seems pretty disingenuous to me.

duncan_bayne 12y ago

> "The government has a role to play" in ensuring that women and minorities are fairly represented in the tech workforce, Jackson told a USA TODAY editorial board meeting. He said the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission needs to examine Silicon Valley's employment contracts. Looks like Jackson is trying to rebrand 'affirmative action'. Doesn't matter, though: it's still a violation of the rights of almost all concerned.

b6 12y ago

Specifically considering race in hiring decisions, however well-intentioned, is racism. We won't get to where we want to be by skillfully and fairly applying racism -- we'll get there by not caring about race. I grew up in a rural area in the southern US where racism was common and overt. I can very honestly and sincerely say that I find this more insidious form of racism, which is so widely accepted, to be much more disturbing and frightening.

muglug 12y ago
Sure, then conduct interviews entirely blindly without mentioning any biographical information that betrays one's gender, race or social background, and that might subconsciously sway an interviewer one way or the other. Also, be sure to conduct the interviews in a society where the interviewee has been brought up on an entirely level playing field, so they have had exactly the same opportunity to formulate and achieve their goals as others with their same aptitude. Edit: see this Princeton study: http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml showing a correlation between blind auditions and a dramatic shift in the gender composition of orchestras in the 70s and 80s.
jessedhillon 12y ago
You know what else -- if you find that certain frequencies in the music you're listening to are over-represented, they make these earplugs which can dampen only those frequencies. The song isn't anymore equalized coming out of the speaker, but as long as you've got your earplugs in you won't know the difference. I can very honestly and sincerely say that I find this more insidious form of racism, which is so widely accepted, to be much more disturbing and frightening. I can see why you would say that, because nobody reasonable accepts the open racism you grew up with, whereas -- if you think diversity efforts are racism and sexism -- then it seems to you that there is unspoken acceptance of race/gender-based discrimination. Consider that, a) your solution would require everyone to be ignorant of race, not just you, b) not all racism is overt and visible, or even intentional, and therefore well-meaning people can still end up perpetuating racial biases because they can't correct for what they don't see c) supposing that you, on the basis of your race, were a member of a historically empowered group -- any efforts to reverse that advantage would feel to your group like a loss of power, which is naturally against your near-term interests d) supposing again that racial biases exist and have disempowered certain groups, over time, and empowered others -- the advantages would have had a cumulative effect over generations, as this is how advantage (in terms of wealth, connections, access, transmitted/received knowledge) is often-observed to accrue. In that case simply putting on the blinders would be like dragging one runner down with a 100 lb weight for half the race, then removing the weight and simply expecting the rest of the race to be fair.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

varlife 12y ago

I respect Mr. Jackson's earlier work, but he's becoming what he fought against. Nowhere in his article were educational opportunities promoted or discussed. Instead, an industry was shamed simply for the color of their skin.

Aloha 12y ago

You cant make tech diversity by fiat however - it takes more people from those minorities showing interest an in essence, showing up. We are well represented by Southeast Asia, Asia, and I'd argue by women too (though probably not enough) - but again, IMO, the limits are a lack of candidates with a tech background or the drive/interest to learn (as well as good training programs for them to build real experience in), not by any inherent racism. FWIW, I'm in Seattle, and YMMV depending on which region of the world/country you're in.