5 ms·

I find it very hard to believe that this supposed investor blatantly told her that women are inferior and then she politely said thank you and left. I'd have to

I find it very hard to believe that this supposed investor blatantly told her that women are inferior and then she politely said thank you and left. I'd have to see this in person to ever believe that actually happened. I'm willing to believe it is some exaggeration after she was declined and now she is upset and thinks it is because she is a women. I'll probably get downvoted, but I'm just really skeptical of this story. To be clear I have no problem with women and am a strong advocate of equality, but this just sounds fake to make a point.

foolrush 12y ago
If you stretch a little, it is possible you can see the inherent enculturation of ideology within your statement. A) Why does it sound “fake”? B) Why would you have to see this in person to believe it? C) Can you see the metanarratives you constructed in the “I'm willing to believe...” sentence?
- izzydata 12y ago
  It sounds fake because I've never experienced a professional interaction of such a condescending manner. I'd have to see it to believe it simply because it sounds so fake. I'd be willing to believe something that is far more plausible than something that isn't.
  - foolrush 12y ago
    The reasons _why_ something sounds illegitimate can be ideological. Every single woman could list off a number of things that have been said to her over the course of her life that would sound “fake” due to their horrific content, and relative to normative white male experience. “The most common thing I hear from other women is: ‘Oh the stories I’ll tell once I’m far enough along that I don’t have to worry about being shamed,’” Misogyny runs deeper than logic in much the same way other ideological constructs lead to cognitive biases.
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    > It sounds fake because I've never experienced a professional interaction of such a condescending manner. You haven't experienced anti-female bigotry because you aren't female. I would venture to guess--and I could certainly be wrong--that you've also never experienced anti-black or anti-gay bigotry because you aren't either of those things, either. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But you need to realize that the fact that it doesn't happen around you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
_petronius 12y ago
Every time a story like this comes up, I see a lot of people rush to downplay it as exaggeration, either in terms of the specific anecdotes related or in terms of the frequency with which it happens. Part of that is an inherent defensiveness about the tech industry being painted as discriminatory in this way. I get that, I guess -- it's our corner of the world, full of people we like, we generally like to assume that the people we work with, in addition to doing good work, also treat people with equality. It's also because the speaker, and a lot of people around the speaker, assert (possibly correctly) that a) he (or she) does not discriminate against women and b) none of his (or her) colleagues are likely to. But that downplay, and that dismissiveness, is its own kind of discrimination. Gender bias is not something that I have ever experienced as a man, and not something I have ever seen in the small (usually gender-balanced) companies I have worked in. But, just because I don't see it (I'm not the one getting inappropriately hit on, or denied funding, etc.) doesn't mean it isn't very real. Sure, based on all the information I have of personal experience and the experience in the workplaces I have been in, this isn't a problem -- but of course, it's completely solipsistic to argue that my experience is any evidence of the wider state of things. The shouting down of these stories is itself a worrying sign. If anyone feels like the culture they work in is treating them unfairly, maybe we should examine that closely, to figure out why they feel that way and what we (all of us) need to do that they don't, rather than dismiss it as delusion or malice, and in so doing free ourselves of addressing it.
- foolrush 12y ago
  So well said, and utterly refreshing to read on HN. The framing of all normative experience as male is one invisible aspect to this that few are willing or able to see. “Thus humanity is male and man defines woman not in herself but as relative to him; she is not regarded as an autonomous being.” https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/de-beauvoir/2nd-sex/introduction.htm https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/de-beauvoi...

foolrush 12y ago

If you stretch a little, it is possible you can see the inherent enculturation of ideology within your statement. A) Why does it sound “fake”? B) Why would you have to see this in person to believe it? C) Can you see the metanarratives you constructed in the “I'm willing to believe...” sentence?

izzydata 12y ago
It sounds fake because I've never experienced a professional interaction of such a condescending manner. I'd have to see it to believe it simply because it sounds so fake. I'd be willing to believe something that is far more plausible than something that isn't.
- foolrush 12y ago
  The reasons _why_ something sounds illegitimate can be ideological. Every single woman could list off a number of things that have been said to her over the course of her life that would sound “fake” due to their horrific content, and relative to normative white male experience. “The most common thing I hear from other women is: ‘Oh the stories I’ll tell once I’m far enough along that I don’t have to worry about being shamed,’” Misogyny runs deeper than logic in much the same way other ideological constructs lead to cognitive biases.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  > It sounds fake because I've never experienced a professional interaction of such a condescending manner. You haven't experienced anti-female bigotry because you aren't female. I would venture to guess--and I could certainly be wrong--that you've also never experienced anti-black or anti-gay bigotry because you aren't either of those things, either. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But you need to realize that the fact that it doesn't happen around you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

_petronius 12y ago

Every time a story like this comes up, I see a lot of people rush to downplay it as exaggeration, either in terms of the specific anecdotes related or in terms of the frequency with which it happens. Part of that is an inherent defensiveness about the tech industry being painted as discriminatory in this way. I get that, I guess -- it's our corner of the world, full of people we like, we generally like to assume that the people we work with, in addition to doing good work, also treat people with equality. It's also because the speaker, and a lot of people around the speaker, assert (possibly correctly) that a) he (or she) does not discriminate against women and b) none of his (or her) colleagues are likely to. But that downplay, and that dismissiveness, is its own kind of discrimination. Gender bias is not something that I have ever experienced as a man, and not something I have ever seen in the small (usually gender-balanced) companies I have worked in. But, just because I don't see it (I'm not the one getting inappropriately hit on, or denied funding, etc.) doesn't mean it isn't very real. Sure, based on all the information I have of personal experience and the experience in the workplaces I have been in, this isn't a problem -- but of course, it's completely solipsistic to argue that my experience is any evidence of the wider state of things. The shouting down of these stories is itself a worrying sign. If anyone feels like the culture they work in is treating them unfairly, maybe we should examine that closely, to figure out why they feel that way and what we (all of us) need to do that they don't, rather than dismiss it as delusion or malice, and in so doing free ourselves of addressing it.

foolrush 12y ago
So well said, and utterly refreshing to read on HN. The framing of all normative experience as male is one invisible aspect to this that few are willing or able to see. “Thus humanity is male and man defines woman not in herself but as relative to him; she is not regarded as an autonomous being.” https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/de-beauvoir/2nd-sex/introduction.htm https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/de-beauvoi...