7 ms·
Dear Instagram
- ivraatiems 12y agoThis is a well-written appeal. I'm sure, however, that there's no intention of getting Instagram to actually do anything - the fact it was posted publicly, along with the "hurts us more than it hurts you" line makes that obvious to me. But maybe that was obviously the point to everyone, and my comment is rendered unnecessary.
- vjvj 12y agoSure the public appeal is a better option for a small start up to put pressure Instagram to use a different name rather than a behind the scenes legal notice...
- ivraatiems 12y agoAbsolutely! That's exactly my point. And again, I'm not saying that's wrong or bad. I'm saying it's the smart, albeit cynical move.
- resu_nimda 12y agoHe's saying that this might reasonably be considered the most effective way to actually persuade Instagram to change (even if it's still a longshot), which kind of goes against your main point of "there's no intention of getting Instagram to actually do anything."
- ivraatiems 12y agoFor sure, it might be, but what I'm saying is that's not the primary intention. It would be nice if it happened, but it's not necessarily going to unless this gets serious traction.
- dlsx 12y agoIndeed, this company has chosen a generic name "Bolt" and registered a cheap knock-off TLD of .com This is like patent trolling on a smaller scale, I believe I considered naming my company bolt or zip or whatever, but until you have big lawyers who can sort this out behind closed doors you are just begging for publicity in a soliciting way.
- sbarre 12y agoWhat do you mean by "no intention of getting Instagram to actually do anything"? It seems like a pretty clear-cut public appeal to Instagram/Facebook to actually do something, which is to choose a different name before the product launches.. One has to hope/assume that Bolt has already tried private channels and met with little or no success, which is what forced them to go this public route.. Or are you implying they want to be paid off?
- rglullis 12y agoYour parent is implying they are taking this as an opportunity to get some publicity out of a David-Goliath story.
- benihana 12y ago>What do you mean by "no intention of getting Instagram to actually do anything"? GP means with this blog post Bolt is using this opportunity not to appeal to Istangram, but to get free publicity for the company.
- aaronem 12y agoOr possibly, as is actually mentioned in the article under discussion, to lay groundwork for a later legal defense of their mark.
- jebus989 12y agoI don't buy that this three-guy operation has the means for such litigation and this post gives no indication they've had any consultation with a relevant legal professional thus far.
- aaronem 12y agoWell, what of it? They're worried Instagram is going to eat their mark bones and all; whether they're planning to litigate or otherwise, their best defense is to make as much noise about it as they can.
- JoshTriplett 12y agoThis looks like a request for public support together with a subtle threat: > We've been using the Bolt name in the mobile messaging market for a year, and technically we have to "police our mark", otherwise we risk losing it. > We don't want a legal battle over this, and we think it's not too late for you to consider an alternate name before launch.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- goodside 12y agoIt's hard to have much sympathy when your app already has an identical name (and a very similar logo) to a mobile web browser launched four years earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_(web_browser) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_(web_browser)
- freehunter 12y agoFortunately, Bolt browser no longer exists and names, especially four letter common words, can't be reserved forever.
- grabeh 12y agoTechnically they can. I could register whatever sequence of letters I want provided they can act as a unique identifier for me, and are not in themselves descriptive. If I register 'Bolt' for dog-walking services this is not descriptive and provided I pay my renewal fees I can protect the word forever, and take action against those whose use of it confuses users (for example 'Bolt' for dog food) or takes unfair advantage of the reputation in my mark. The presence of a word in a dictionary/its length has no bearing on its registrability as a trade mark.
- freehunter 12y ago>provided I pay my renewal fees That's my point. There's a maximum lifespan; the life of the company. Since Bolt browser no longer exists, I doubt they would renew the trademark.
- davb 12y agoI think the difference here is that the Bolt web browser was discontinued in 2011 (according to the Wikipedia article you linked), whereas the OPs "Bolt" voice/SMS service is very much an active project.
- renekooi 12y agoIdunno, the web browser has been discontinued for 3 years now. It also seems that bolt.co and Instagram's Bolt are much more similar to each other (apps dedicated to person→person communication) than Bolt the browser is to either of them, so the risk of confusion is much smaller.
- daddykotex 12y agoI hope they change the name. Since Instagram is owned by Facebook and Facebook has launched Slingshot, a Snapchat rival, I'm wondering why they need another one?
- ivraatiems 12y agoWith acquisitions, Facebook has generally left the acquired company mostly alone (if it's big and successful already). Instagram, Occulus and WhatsApp as examples. Instagram competes with Facebook in some ways, too, but it's still separate. Their goal is more data, not less competition.
- trothamel 12y agoIs collecting data the goal, or simply diversification? My theory is that Facebook (the company) is preparing for the day when Facebook (the website) goes the way of Friendster and Myspace, and they're attempting to have other lines of business when that happens.
- ivraatiems 12y agoHmm, I hadn't considered that. It could be. I dunno. Anyway, they definitely want to keep their acquisitions pretty separate for the time being.
- minimaxir 12y agoSlingshot is dead in the water, having fallen out of the Top 200 for its category. Facebook must be trying for a round 3.
- fred_durst 12y agoI have a feeling Facebook is becoming a bit of an integrated app holdings company. Where as Amazon and Google have turned their infrastructure to the public, Facebook appears to be using it and its large investment dollars to be building a type of decentralized(partly) tech conglomerate. It's almost as if they took their lessons from the struggles in becoming a platform for third parties and decided that there are only a small number of core applications people use. Instead of waiting for, and having less control of these high profile apps, Facebook instead is just owning them outright.
- MichaelApproved 12y agoI don't see a trademark claim for the name Bolt on their website. I bet, had they gotten one, they would have an easier time defending the name. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
- tzakrajs 12y agoI don't see this as getting any more interesting than Instagram ignoring this plea.
- scott_s 12y agoClaiming a trademark is distinct from registering a trademark. You can claim a trademark by just saying "this is our trademark." That will typically be done with the "TM" symbol. Registering a trademark means you applied with the USPTO to get a registered trademark, and it was granted. You are correct in that they don't make an explicit claim, but I'm not sure if trademark law actually requires you to do that. It would certainly make everything less messy.
- chimeracoder 12y ago> I'm not sure if trademark law actually requires you to do that. It definitely does not. It certainly could influence a court decision (there's always a degree of uncertainty with any court case), but you absolutely can defend a mark that you have not explicitly claimed or registered, as long as you can demonstrate sufficiently widespread prior use.
- chimeracoder 12y ago> I don't see a trademark claim for the name Bolt on their website. This is a very common misconception. Trademarks do not need to be registered in order to be defended (and even registering a trademark does not mean you can defend it). Registering a trademark might have prevented this situation, but only if the Instagram lawyers took the time to search the USPTO database for marks matching "Bolt" (but even then, it's not a guarantee since (A) the search interface is pretty bad, and (B) they may have decided to go ahead and use it anyway).
- 12y ago
- dimillian 12y agoAlso, Facebook have a library named bolt: https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2014/01/30/let-s-bolt/ https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2014/01/30/let-s-b...
- coder23 12y agoThat is not in direct competition to Bolt. If Instagram launched a game or a washing service called Bolt, there would be no problem.
- 5teev 12y ago"Bolts Framework" is rather different from, and clearly not competing with, "Bolt."
- eps 12y agoLet's not forget Disney's Bolt while we are at it!
- jaredmcdonald 12y ago*"bolts"
- danvesma 12y agoLets go with "Dolt"
- coldcode 12y agoThese days people seem to prefer using actual words as names which can only result in conflicts like this one. At least names like Flikr are pretty unique.
- uptown 12y agoClickable link to the Bolt homepage: https://bolt.co/ https://bolt.co/ I always find it annoying when the blog company logo doesn't bring you back to the company's homepage.
- scott_s 12y agoMe too, but this one does: the far right link. I had to click most of the links on the top to figure that out, though.
- uptown 12y agoAh - good call. I totally missed that link.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- Alupis 12y agoI think we can surmise Instagram is not going to change the name of their new product just because this company wrote a blog post. They will need to compel Instagram into doing so.
- mikejarema 12y agoMe too, so what is best practice? I put together a simple layout for my company's blog and made this link very explicit specific, see: http://blog.vidoyen.com http://blog.vidoyen.com Is that more in line with a blog reader would generally expect? I'm genuinely curious, because I've seen variants of this comment time and time again on HN.
- brandonmenc 12y ago> Imagine how it would have felt if Google or Apple or Facebook had launched a photo-sharing app called Instagram in 2011. "Bolt" is a short, common word. "Instagram" is not (it's also more descriptive.) Unfortunately, the days of naming products desirable things like "bolt," and being able to defend them, legally or not, are over. The strange-made-up-word naming trend is annoying, but at least you're guaranteed a name no one else wants.
- dblacc 12y ago>Unfortunately, the days of naming products desirable things like "bolt," and being able to defend them, legally or not, are over. I have a feeling the guys at King disagree with you.
- brandonmenc 12y agoKind of my point. How deep are King's pockets...?
- rythie 12y agoThey've got the .com though, bolt(.co) don't.
- baby 12y agoor Apple.
- brandonmenc 12y agoApple's choice of name cost them all sorts of money, re: music.
- thomasz 12y agoI'm pretty sure you can get trademark protection for short, common words, as long as they are not descriptive or common for the protected areas. You can name your car bar and your bar car, but not your bar bar and your car car.
- badman_ting 12y agoThere was nothing named "Bolt" before Mr. Benton's product came around? Really?
- frogpelt 12y agoYes, actually there was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_%28website%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_%28website%29
- pathy 12y agouspto.gov doesn't seem to allow linking directly to trademark filing but search for Bolt and the first two results appear to be from Bolt.co. One was filed in the 22nd and the other on the 23rd July 2014. Seems like something they should have done earlier but I do feel for them none the less, potentially going up against FB's legal team seems less than fun. >"IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Computer application software for mobile phones, namely, software for use in text, voice and video communication between users. FIRST USE: 20131014. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20131014"
- yoavush 12y agodownloaded Bolt as the only way i can support from afar..
- bjones53 12y agoI hope the team makes the best of a bad situation and uses the attention (and possibly press) to convert supporters, like yourself, into users.
- bdcravens 12y agoThe beta name for the first version of Adobe's ColdFusion Builder (IDE) was Bolt.
- eddieroger 12y agoThis appeal reminded me of HipChat's situation with Messages for Mac, and the similar (but better responded to) action they took [0]. It doesn't look like Bolt did anything to lay claim to the name, and they probably don't want to go up against Facebook's lawyers. Besides, they only support Android at the moment, so to any iOS user, Bolt is completely new (and, likely, same for Android, but at least they had potential to know the product). 0. https://blog.hipchat.com/2012/02/17/they-may-just-be-chat-bubbles-but-theyre-our-chat-bubbles/ https://blog.hipchat.com/2012/02/17/they-may-just-be-chat-bu...
- bhandziuk 12y agoDear Bolt.co, I truly wish you luck in your fight against Instagram. Name stealing is a rough game. I know because I have been traveling on Bolt buses for 8 years now (http://www.boltbus.com/ http://www.boltbus.com/). I know there is some confusion because you have basically the same symbol. Maybe there aren't too many ways to vary a lightning bolt shooting through an "O" in the word "Bolt" but I welcome you (and Instagram to try). Sincerely, A bus rider.
- diminish 12y agoand here's the cms called http://bolt.cm http://bolt.cm I'm curious who got this name earlier.
- ljf 12y agoAnd the media sharing forum: http://bolt.cd/ http://bolt.cd/
- deaconblues 12y agoAnd the 2008 animated Disney movie: http://movies.disney.com/bolt http://movies.disney.com/bolt
- virtualSatai 12y agoBolt.co registered 2010-07-21 Bolt.cm registered 2012-09-19 Bolt.cd earliest record 2011-01-04
- ujjwal_wadhawan 12y agoHow many people remember bo.lt from 2011 ? https://www.facebook.com/getbolt https://www.facebook.com/getbolt
- subpixel 12y agoAnd how many remember bolt.com from the dotcom bubble? https://web.archive.org/web/19981207004638/http://www.bolt.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/19981207004638/http://www.bolt.c...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- TallGuyShort 12y agoI wish them luck, although using the name of a common machine part as a brand is kind of asking for collisions. I'm also not sure it's wise to base one of your first steps in a potential legal battle on an open letter based on leaked information...
- rahimnathwani 12y agoThe app icon for Facebook Messenger has a bolt. It's a mobile messenger app. It uses a bolt as the main part of its logo.
- toufka 12y agoReminds me of when Facebook did this with Papers[1] too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7171724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7171724
- shekhar101 12y agoOff topic, but I'm curious, how do you dig in and find old HN postings? I see a lot of people doing it.
- toufka 12y agoI read the article when it came out - remembered it, and then searched for it using the bottom search bar. Took a few different search terms to find the article - but it came up relatively quickly. Not too complicated - but does require me to have read the article a while ago.
- dethtron5000 12y agoI worked at a startup in the late 90s called Bolt. It's hard to protect your name when it's a short, commonly-used word.
- enthdegree 12y agoThe #1 way to spot some 'mushy web3.0 startup' is to see if they name their fledgling product some generic, overloaded dictionary word. My perception has always been that owners choose this sort of name to market their product as 'truly the most no-nonsense utilitarian solution, for people who Get Things Done like me & u.' There have been a lot of these lately. Chosing a dull name to be cool isn't helping anyone and I hope collisons like this latest groupthink help the trend die quickly.
- karjaluoto 12y agoI wrote about this topic a few months back, when 53 was upset about Facebook using the "name" Paper: http://www.erickarjaluoto.com/blog/the-perils-of-naming-your-company/ http://www.erickarjaluoto.com/blog/the-perils-of-naming-your... tl;dr Using a word to name a company is easy, but indefensible.
- huntleydavis 12y agoI think this is a risk that bolt.co and really any startup that chooses a short 'techy' word as their company name has to factor in.
- enthdegree 12y agoThe #1 way to spot a mushy web3.0 social startup is to see if they named their product a generic, overloaded dictionary word. This is a really irritating recent trend. Every time I see one of these I can almost hear the 'profile picture in a circle' of the CEO pitching the name to me: 'its a really utilitarian, no-nonsense product for People Who Just Get It Done, like me & my team, so naming it out of the common English vocabulary was really the most natural expression of this' Naming your products tired names like 'Bolt' is not bold, it's just uncreative. It helps no one: it's pretentious, it makes your product harder to find (regardless of 'how dissimilar it is to previous products'), and it makes your brand less memorable. Why would anyone want to do this to their company or their customers? Maybe people who perpetrate this sort of situation will continue to have tensions like this one and the trend will gracefully(?) self-destruct. Hopefully the people who are capable of building valuable products will choose names which don't cost them!
- enthdegree 12y agoNot as extreme a case, but does anyone remember HealthKit?
- chipotle_coyote 12y agoI'd say that the munging of the two words together actually makes that relatively distinctive, and in line with Apple's "BlahKit" naming convention for their API sets. Now Pages and Numbers, on the other hand...
- fagbox 12y agoSuckKit
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- issa 12y agoI humbly suggest changing it to "The Bolt". It's cleaner.
- stasy 12y agoI think it might actually make yours get more popular if they use the same name (hop on the bandwagon of their marketing)
- baldajan 12y agoBolt - you will likely lose this case, Facebook knows this. Don't litigate. Bolt is used too often and the only way you would succeed in a reverse confusion trial is to show that you own the Bolt trademark when it comes to mobile communication - no easy task. Just look at FiftyThree's USPTO application for "Paper" and the letter of protest that was submitted. You only recently filed for the mark in the USPTO, and even by some miracle you get it through the PTO, Facebook/Instagram can still file a Letter of Protest or file an Opposition in the TTAB. Unfortunately, even though you have rights to the name Bolt, you likely won't be able to enforce it. That said, neither Facebook nor Instagram can successfully litigate against you in court.
- chrischen 12y agoInstagram also harassed us over our name Instapainting.com. They decided to ban us from using Facebook services unless we changed our name.