4 ms·

Ph.D. bigotry is an artifact of the bad job market, which has just been getting worse for the past 30 years. There used to be BA-level research jobs. There sti

Ph.D. bigotry is an artifact of the bad job market, which has just been getting worse for the past 30 years. There used to be BA-level research jobs. There still are. They're just now filled by PhDs. Basic research is pretty much gone. Pedigree bigotry is the natural reaction of a society or subculture in decline. When the future is hopeless and the present is uninspiring, people obsess about the past. PhD Bigotry is a way for the brilliant but passed-over (through no fault of their own) to reminisce about the days when they were young and clueless and thought society-at-large gave a shit about anything other than crass commercialism. Personally, I prefer to bet on the future. Simply due to resource limitations, we'll need to reinvest in basic research if we don't want human extinction (or at least the collapse of civilization). But that is a bet, and we're going to have to demolish some entrenched players in order to have one.

erikpukinskis 12y ago
I agree, Academia is in decline. Sort of. It's in decline the way journalism is in decline, which is to say: there's more of it than ever, and the people who are Getting It Done are thriving in new, 21st century institutions. But people who just want a job "in the industry", whether it is journalism or academics, are going to have a bad time as vast swaths of "the industry" crumble in response to competition that actually embraces the new value system the internet is forcing on all industries. Universities will continue to exist, and will do great research, along with being an excellent babysitter for 18-30 year olds who have the means to purchase a babysitter while they focus on their academics (or not). But more and more research will happen outside of the Academy, because research is useful. And for many kinds of research, there are easier ways to get it done than getting a PhD. And that trend will increase. And the University will lose its place as the de-facto spot for kids and researchers to go.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  But people who just want a job "in the industry", whether it is journalism or academics, are going to have a bad time Don't look down on those "just want a job" people. When you don't have an income, the need to get one consumes you. Working "for passion" is a luxury of trust-fund kids and people who pulled off their exits before the Valley became a scam. The idea that it's dishonorable to work for money is classism. Most people have no other choice. But more and more research will happen outside of the Academy, because research is useful. Sadly, we see the opposite trend. Research inside and outside of academia is melting down. Companies use the results of R&D (open-source software is an R&D effort) and buy "innovation" out of a rigged R&D-ish system (the VC-funded Valley) but no one is paying for it, which means that very little of quality is being built at scale. Something will bring it back, but it will probably start outside of the US. It will probably involve competition at an international level. I'd love to see it take a friendly form: an all-information-shared (the objective being prestige, not dominance over others) 21st-century moon-shot race between North America, Europe, and Asia on curing cancer. Sadly, history shows that it's just as likely to involve war, because humans are perilously stupid. Until that happens, I feel like technical excellence is such a nonpriority in this country that it shouldn't surprise anyone that Stanford threw its weight behind Clinkle and Snapchat. The prestige competition between universities may have had that effect at one time, but now they compete on stupid shit like pampering rich douchebags, overpaying top administrators, and funding idiotic startups like Clinkle as a way of selling "the experience" (your kid might be made founder of the next Snapchat!)
  - nextos 12y ago
    I might come a bit late to the party, but I should say not all hope is lost yet. I think there's a lot of inefficiency in the labour market. I'm currently in a really good university doing research, and all the software engineers & computer scientists hired in many labs I know tend to be quite awful, with some exceptions.
  - erikpukinskis 12y ago
    I wasn't distinguishing between those who need a job and those who want a job. I was distinguishing between those who want to do the work (no matter their motivation) and those who just want to have the position.
Estragon 12y ago
How are you making that bet?
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I could go to MBA school, become a McKinsey-type douchebag, and join the top VC firms at high levels. I'm 40 IQ points smarter than them. But I don't. Instead, I'm studying Haskell. On a Sunday night. Including all the random stuff I read just because I'm passionate about technology, I probably work 70 hours per week. (Much of that's self-directed and career-oriented; working more than 30-40 without a career payoff is a chump's game.) Why is this? Why do I side with the team (technologists, as opposed to douchebags) that seems to be losing? Because I think the good guys are going to win, and that actual technical knowledge is going to become an important asset again. It might be 10 or 20 years from now, but I think it will happen.
  - smeyer 12y ago
    I'm sure you're a great guy and just coming across negatively in this one comment, but you sound less pleasant than the vast majority of McKinsey people I've ever met. It's a bit odd in a comment complaining about consulting douchebags.
    - michaelochurch 12y ago
      I'm honest about what I am. I don't live to screw people over, in the way that management consultants do. (They invented the stack-ranking practices that destroyed a great number of technology companies, and that are directly responsible for the Enron calamity.) I'm also not trying to maximize my Niceness Score. The world is on fire and I'm not afraid if other people get soaked in the process of saving the damn thing.
      - toby 12y ago
        I'm an engineer, and I have several friends who are or were management consultants. None of the ones I met "lived to screw people over".
roel_v 12y ago
I was reading your post, about halfway through I started thinking 'hey this reads like a post by...' glances up at username 'oh look, it actually is' skips rest of post.
- meritt 12y ago
  What's the background on why we should ignore michaelochurch?
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    I'm waiting on this, as well.
  - roel_v 12y ago
    In any thread that is (remotely) about employers requiring degrees for software engineers, or anything that has to do with working at/for Google, he is (irrationally) vocal about the worthlessness of degrees, how much Google sucks, and in general how much software people are discriminates against / should be paid more. From a quick google it even seems he has a blog about this. Look, I don't know the guy - apparently he worked for Google for a (very) short time, had a semi-public falling out with a bunch of people there, and since then got into a couple of nasty flamewars with Google'ers (and others, from what I can tell) here and elsewhere. I don't care one way or the other really, to me (and to many regulars here, methinks) he's like one of those street preachers wearing 'repent now' and 'the devil is amongst us' buttons; a part of the urban scenery that is best not engaged with, lest you'll spend the rest of your day going back-and-forth in an 'argument' that can't be 'won' (even for the most lenient definition of 'won'). But if I'm mistaking the GP for somebody else, my apologies.

erikpukinskis 12y ago

I agree, Academia is in decline. Sort of. It's in decline the way journalism is in decline, which is to say: there's more of it than ever, and the people who are Getting It Done are thriving in new, 21st century institutions. But people who just want a job "in the industry", whether it is journalism or academics, are going to have a bad time as vast swaths of "the industry" crumble in response to competition that actually embraces the new value system the internet is forcing on all industries. Universities will continue to exist, and will do great research, along with being an excellent babysitter for 18-30 year olds who have the means to purchase a babysitter while they focus on their academics (or not). But more and more research will happen outside of the Academy, because research is useful. And for many kinds of research, there are easier ways to get it done than getting a PhD. And that trend will increase. And the University will lose its place as the de-facto spot for kids and researchers to go.

michaelochurch 12y ago
But people who just want a job "in the industry", whether it is journalism or academics, are going to have a bad time Don't look down on those "just want a job" people. When you don't have an income, the need to get one consumes you. Working "for passion" is a luxury of trust-fund kids and people who pulled off their exits before the Valley became a scam. The idea that it's dishonorable to work for money is classism. Most people have no other choice. But more and more research will happen outside of the Academy, because research is useful. Sadly, we see the opposite trend. Research inside and outside of academia is melting down. Companies use the results of R&D (open-source software is an R&D effort) and buy "innovation" out of a rigged R&D-ish system (the VC-funded Valley) but no one is paying for it, which means that very little of quality is being built at scale. Something will bring it back, but it will probably start outside of the US. It will probably involve competition at an international level. I'd love to see it take a friendly form: an all-information-shared (the objective being prestige, not dominance over others) 21st-century moon-shot race between North America, Europe, and Asia on curing cancer. Sadly, history shows that it's just as likely to involve war, because humans are perilously stupid. Until that happens, I feel like technical excellence is such a nonpriority in this country that it shouldn't surprise anyone that Stanford threw its weight behind Clinkle and Snapchat. The prestige competition between universities may have had that effect at one time, but now they compete on stupid shit like pampering rich douchebags, overpaying top administrators, and funding idiotic startups like Clinkle as a way of selling "the experience" (your kid might be made founder of the next Snapchat!)
- nextos 12y ago
  I might come a bit late to the party, but I should say not all hope is lost yet. I think there's a lot of inefficiency in the labour market. I'm currently in a really good university doing research, and all the software engineers & computer scientists hired in many labs I know tend to be quite awful, with some exceptions.
- erikpukinskis 12y ago
  I wasn't distinguishing between those who need a job and those who want a job. I was distinguishing between those who want to do the work (no matter their motivation) and those who just want to have the position.

Estragon 12y ago

How are you making that bet?

michaelochurch 12y ago
I could go to MBA school, become a McKinsey-type douchebag, and join the top VC firms at high levels. I'm 40 IQ points smarter than them. But I don't. Instead, I'm studying Haskell. On a Sunday night. Including all the random stuff I read just because I'm passionate about technology, I probably work 70 hours per week. (Much of that's self-directed and career-oriented; working more than 30-40 without a career payoff is a chump's game.) Why is this? Why do I side with the team (technologists, as opposed to douchebags) that seems to be losing? Because I think the good guys are going to win, and that actual technical knowledge is going to become an important asset again. It might be 10 or 20 years from now, but I think it will happen.
- smeyer 12y ago
  I'm sure you're a great guy and just coming across negatively in this one comment, but you sound less pleasant than the vast majority of McKinsey people I've ever met. It's a bit odd in a comment complaining about consulting douchebags.
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    I'm honest about what I am. I don't live to screw people over, in the way that management consultants do. (They invented the stack-ranking practices that destroyed a great number of technology companies, and that are directly responsible for the Enron calamity.) I'm also not trying to maximize my Niceness Score. The world is on fire and I'm not afraid if other people get soaked in the process of saving the damn thing.
    - toby 12y ago
      I'm an engineer, and I have several friends who are or were management consultants. None of the ones I met "lived to screw people over".

roel_v 12y ago

I was reading your post, about halfway through I started thinking 'hey this reads like a post by...' glances up at username 'oh look, it actually is' skips rest of post.

meritt 12y ago
What's the background on why we should ignore michaelochurch?
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I'm waiting on this, as well.
- roel_v 12y ago
  In any thread that is (remotely) about employers requiring degrees for software engineers, or anything that has to do with working at/for Google, he is (irrationally) vocal about the worthlessness of degrees, how much Google sucks, and in general how much software people are discriminates against / should be paid more. From a quick google it even seems he has a blog about this. Look, I don't know the guy - apparently he worked for Google for a (very) short time, had a semi-public falling out with a bunch of people there, and since then got into a couple of nasty flamewars with Google'ers (and others, from what I can tell) here and elsewhere. I don't care one way or the other really, to me (and to many regulars here, methinks) he's like one of those street preachers wearing 'repent now' and 'the devil is amongst us' buttons; a part of the urban scenery that is best not engaged with, lest you'll spend the rest of your day going back-and-forth in an 'argument' that can't be 'won' (even for the most lenient definition of 'won'). But if I'm mistaking the GP for somebody else, my apologies.