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Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being

by Pacabel 12y ago

Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being adults and professionals, they accept that they may just accidentally make mistakes when working on rather complex tools. They don't really care how the problems are pointed out, as their interest is in getting the problems fixed, and not taking it personally. These people are very different from, say, the young Rubyist who will have his feelings hurt when legitimate flaws are pointed out with something he's worked on. The GCC developers won't cry if you report a bug, and they won't deny that it exists to try to save face. Getting the bugs fixed is what matters to them, so they don't waste time allowing their feelings to be hurt by hyperbolic mailing list discussion.

yohanatan 12y ago
That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      And whoever is downvoting these posts is a sick human being.
      - Pacabel 12y ago
        Even if we disagree about the other matters being discussed earlier, I do have to agree with you about the misvoting you've been subjected to. There is no legitimate reason for your comments to have been voted down. I'm seeing this sort of blatant and unjustifiable misvoting happening more and more often here. It's really making it harder to read a lot of legitimate content, and it's discouraging participation in otherwise perfectly fine discussion.
    - pdonis 12y ago
      > This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. I made no such argument; in fact my reply to you specifically recognized the fact that a GCC developer might come across Linus' message on the Linux kernel list. My argument was that such a GCC developer would recognize that the Linux kernel mailing list does not belong to him or his project, it belongs to Linus and his project, and the fact that Linus' tone when he posted to GCC's bug tracker was quite different shows that Linus understands the difference too.
      - yohanatan 12y ago
        Maybe it would help if you read the conversation again. I'll paste here for convenience: >>>>>> Linus just being Linus (paraphrased). >>>>> That may be so but I'm pretty sure that pretty much every study that's been done on this says insulting people is demotivating and generally destructive behaviour. >>>> He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person in a negative way. >>> Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them. >> As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them. > Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread? Did you really intend to say that a person can only be insulted if they are insulted in every place a particular issue is discussed? Or are you saying that if a person is treated kindly in at least one avenue, then it doesn't matter how many others they may be insulted in (i.e., the one kind treatment negates all the other offenses)?

by Pacabel 12y ago

yohanatan 12y ago

That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.

Pacabel 12y ago
You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
- yohanatan 12y ago
  Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    And whoever is downvoting these posts is a sick human being.
    - Pacabel 12y ago
      Even if we disagree about the other matters being discussed earlier, I do have to agree with you about the misvoting you've been subjected to. There is no legitimate reason for your comments to have been voted down. I'm seeing this sort of blatant and unjustifiable misvoting happening more and more often here. It's really making it harder to read a lot of legitimate content, and it's discouraging participation in otherwise perfectly fine discussion.
  - pdonis 12y ago
    > This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. I made no such argument; in fact my reply to you specifically recognized the fact that a GCC developer might come across Linus' message on the Linux kernel list. My argument was that such a GCC developer would recognize that the Linux kernel mailing list does not belong to him or his project, it belongs to Linus and his project, and the fact that Linus' tone when he posted to GCC's bug tracker was quite different shows that Linus understands the difference too.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      Maybe it would help if you read the conversation again. I'll paste here for convenience: >>>>>> Linus just being Linus (paraphrased). >>>>> That may be so but I'm pretty sure that pretty much every study that's been done on this says insulting people is demotivating and generally destructive behaviour. >>>> He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person in a negative way. >>> Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them. >> As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them. > Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread? Did you really intend to say that a person can only be insulted if they are insulted in every place a particular issue is discussed? Or are you saying that if a person is treated kindly in at least one avenue, then it doesn't matter how many others they may be insulted in (i.e., the one kind treatment negates all the other offenses)?