6 ms·

Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread?

Pacabel 12y ago
Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being adults and professionals, they accept that they may just accidentally make mistakes when working on rather complex tools. They don't really care how the problems are pointed out, as their interest is in getting the problems fixed, and not taking it personally. These people are very different from, say, the young Rubyist who will have his feelings hurt when legitimate flaws are pointed out with something he's worked on. The GCC developers won't cry if you report a bug, and they won't deny that it exists to try to save face. Getting the bugs fixed is what matters to them, so they don't waste time allowing their feelings to be hurt by hyperbolic mailing list discussion.
- yohanatan 12y ago
  That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.
      - yohanatan 12y ago
        And whoever is downvoting these posts is a sick human being.
        Pacabel 12y ago
        Even if we disagree about the other matters being discussed earlier, I do have to agree with you about the misvoting you've been subjected to. There is no legitimate reason for your comments to have been voted down. I'm seeing this sort of blatant and unjustifiable misvoting happening more and more often here. It's really making it harder to read a lot of legitimate content, and it's discouraging participation in otherwise perfectly fine discussion.
      - pdonis 12y ago
        > This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. I made no such argument; in fact my reply to you specifically recognized the fact that a GCC developer might come across Linus' message on the Linux kernel list. My argument was that such a GCC developer would recognize that the Linux kernel mailing list does not belong to him or his project, it belongs to Linus and his project, and the fact that Linus' tone when he posted to GCC's bug tracker was quite different shows that Linus understands the difference too.
pdonis 12y ago
No, I just think that they, like Linus, know the difference between the GCC bug tracker and the Linux kernel mailing list.
- yohanatan 12y ago
  Context-specific virtues are no virtues at all.
  - pdonis 12y ago
    For the record, I strongly disagree, but I doubt we're going to resolve that here. I would merely point out that one of the main reasons we have different forums for discussion with different rules is precisely to provide different contexts. Wanting every forum in every context to conform to your preferred rules is ridiculous and unrealistic. Part of the price of living in a free society is that you will sometimes come across things that you find offensive, and you'll just have to deal. Understanding things in their proper context is a big part of dealing.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      Well, these were both very public forums. And the fact remains that Linus' behavior on his mailing list (i.e., in the comfort of his own lair) was rather silly and childish. I don't think anyone with his level of experience with large complex systems of software should have a hard time imagining how a bug such as this could be introduced in what has to at this point be considered a program with a life of its own (not that much unlike a machine-generated proof or some other reserve of Big Data(TM)). Yet, instead of jumping to this [obvious] conclusion, he rather chose the vastly more unlikely explanation of incompetence/ willful ignorance/ etc and went on a childish profanity-laced tirade so all of his [equally adolescent] hero-worshippers could get a [cheap] laugh. Also, the fact that there were in fact two very different presentations here from Linus is further proof of the fact that one of them was uncalled for.
      - pdonis 12y ago

Pacabel 12y ago

Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being adults and professionals, they accept that they may just accidentally make mistakes when working on rather complex tools. They don't really care how the problems are pointed out, as their interest is in getting the problems fixed, and not taking it personally. These people are very different from, say, the young Rubyist who will have his feelings hurt when legitimate flaws are pointed out with something he's worked on. The GCC developers won't cry if you report a bug, and they won't deny that it exists to try to save face. Getting the bugs fixed is what matters to them, so they don't waste time allowing their feelings to be hurt by hyperbolic mailing list discussion.

yohanatan 12y ago
That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      And whoever is downvoting these posts is a sick human being.
      - Pacabel 12y ago
        Even if we disagree about the other matters being discussed earlier, I do have to agree with you about the misvoting you've been subjected to. There is no legitimate reason for your comments to have been voted down. I'm seeing this sort of blatant and unjustifiable misvoting happening more and more often here. It's really making it harder to read a lot of legitimate content, and it's discouraging participation in otherwise perfectly fine discussion.
    - pdonis 12y ago
      > This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. I made no such argument; in fact my reply to you specifically recognized the fact that a GCC developer might come across Linus' message on the Linux kernel list. My argument was that such a GCC developer would recognize that the Linux kernel mailing list does not belong to him or his project, it belongs to Linus and his project, and the fact that Linus' tone when he posted to GCC's bug tracker was quite different shows that Linus understands the difference too.

pdonis 12y ago

No, I just think that they, like Linus, know the difference between the GCC bug tracker and the Linux kernel mailing list.

yohanatan 12y ago
Context-specific virtues are no virtues at all.
- pdonis 12y ago
  For the record, I strongly disagree, but I doubt we're going to resolve that here. I would merely point out that one of the main reasons we have different forums for discussion with different rules is precisely to provide different contexts. Wanting every forum in every context to conform to your preferred rules is ridiculous and unrealistic. Part of the price of living in a free society is that you will sometimes come across things that you find offensive, and you'll just have to deal. Understanding things in their proper context is a big part of dealing.
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    Well, these were both very public forums. And the fact remains that Linus' behavior on his mailing list (i.e., in the comfort of his own lair) was rather silly and childish. I don't think anyone with his level of experience with large complex systems of software should have a hard time imagining how a bug such as this could be introduced in what has to at this point be considered a program with a life of its own (not that much unlike a machine-generated proof or some other reserve of Big Data(TM)). Yet, instead of jumping to this [obvious] conclusion, he rather chose the vastly more unlikely explanation of incompetence/ willful ignorance/ etc and went on a childish profanity-laced tirade so all of his [equally adolescent] hero-worshippers could get a [cheap] laugh. Also, the fact that there were in fact two very different presentations here from Linus is further proof of the fact that one of them was uncalled for.
    - pdonis 12y ago