4 ms·

Klansmen and corrupt police from the 60s were racist. So was Malcolm X. "Usually the black racist has been produced by the white racist. In most cases where

by serf 12y ago

Klansmen and corrupt police from the 60s were racist. So was Malcolm X. "Usually the black racist has been produced by the white racist. In most cases where you see it, it is the reaction to white racism, and if you analyze it closely, it's not really black racism... If we react to white racism with a violent reaction, to me that's not black racism. If you come to put a rope around my neck and I hang you for it, to me that's not racism. Yours is racism, but my reaction has nothing to do with racism..." - Malcolm X I disagree with him. I believe that hatred towards a race of people is racism, regardless of origins. When one condemns a group for the actions of a few -- i'll never believe that to be correct. You'll notice that he only mentions a reaction to imminent racism; he, however, did not conduct himself in that manner. He could be called a 'reactionary racist' because his racism was not entirely fueled by sociocultural norms, but rather as a reaction to the hatred that he experienced from living near racism which was fueled socioculturally. While I agree that the motives for that form of hatred are more pure and just, it's still hatred. The repeated perpetration of hatred only leads to more hatred, due to the non-linear growth of vendettas which require 'settling'. Just because he was the victim of much hatred doesn't make certain things he said 'non-racist', and as a (loud) public figure, atonement for advocacy of violence and racism in the past does not undo the damage that it caused. The 'nation's teachings' were despicable; how many were affected? I agree that nearly all of the atrocious stuff he said was during his part with the NOI, but there's no time machine. He still did it. He was never an angel, he just improved with age. The work he did towards uniting blacks as a singular entity to stand towards oppressions was fantastic, however the inches closer towards utopia that got us were lost to incessant preaching of racial weakening (coffee and creamer allegory..) and 'Truly Africans' movement, just further alienating the country as a whole. There are better civil leaders to look up to -- some don't even require you to skim past their evil past.

gajomi 12y ago
>There are better civil leaders to look up to -- some don't even require you to skim past their evil past. >He's was never an angel, he just improved with age. This is actually precisely what I find interesting and relevant about Malcolm X. I read his story not just as a man that people followed, but also as a man continuously undergoing a transformation. By virtue of his intellectual integrity in the face of his life experiences "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" manages to appear as a completely different person than "Malcolm Little". I am in agreement with you that the much of the activities of the NOI, and even things that Malcolm X was involved with on behalf of them, are absolutely not things to look up to. But again, that is why I think his story affects me, in that I see a man who has attained a degree of enlightenment by inspection of his own self. I find it easier to follow such a person than a saint.
- danial 12y ago
  His transformation is the most powerful part of this story and probably one of the reasons why so many readers of HN, who value continuous learning and self-improvement, can relate to it.
corpselord420 12y ago
>He could be called a 'reactionary racist' because his racism was not entirely fueled by sociocultural norms, but rather as a reaction to the hatred that he experienced from living near racism which was fueled socioculturally. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define%3Areactionary https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define%3Areactionary the term 'reactionary' has a specific meaning that is distinct from 'reactive'. its origins are the french revolution, where it was used to describe counterrevolutionary conservatives. it is always used to describe extreme conservativism, and is antonymous to radicalism
omgtehblackbloc 12y ago
"When one condemns a group for the actions of a few -- i'll never believe that to be correct." Racism in America is not an act, it's a caste system. It's not something you do, it's a form of social structuring. Black people are systematically disadvantaged, and white people receive privileges due to their race. So you're wrong that racism is just "the actions of a few". This implies that you are a neutral white person, and shouldn't be blamed for hate crimes or whatever, which are done by a minority of bad white racists whom you don't even like. In fact, the caste system of racism is maintained by all of us, in the same way the rest of the status quo is maintained. Mostly just by people being comfortable enough with the status quo that they don't try very hard to change it, and end up reinforcing it without even realizing. The caste system puts in place all the preconditions for the police brutality, the hate crimes, the denial of employment, etc. None of those things could happen without the caste system supporting and incentivizing them. So we're all responsible for the existence of racism - the whole society. But in particular, consider the group of people who systematically benefits from said caste system, and who despite having drastically more power, are doing pathetically little to eliminate the caste system. Were I looking at the situation from afar, it would seem completely reasonable to say "hey, fuck those people".
- wisty 12y ago
  What if you are wrong? You seem to think it's important to believe there is a caste system, which is moving close to Abrahamic Religion territory - you have to believe because (sometimes irrational) faith becomes the very bedrock of your belief system. You you don't believe, you are part of the problem, right?
  - Avshalom 12y ago
    Well if tehblackbloc's wrong then racism in america is the action of quite a lot of people and the inaction of many more. "fuck those people" still aint exactly unreasonable. Though I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was "important to believe there is a caste system" from what was pretty much a cut and paste definition of racism as used in large chunks of civil rights activism/academia.
dannypgh 12y ago
Your concept of hatred here is what I would describe as self defense. I draw a distinction between racial prejudice - that is, prejudging people based on their race - and racism - which I understand as a social-political-economic system of institutionalized racial oppression. Racial prejudice is an order of magnitude less interesting to me than racial oppression. I am a person of color and I know that people see me and think all sorts of things about me because of things beyond my control; this bothers me, but it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I've been physically attacked and harassed for walking around my own neighborhood, and it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I know that I and many of my loved ones will, even holding all else equal, have worse outcomes with job interviews, police, and law enforcement because of our race. To me that's real racism, and it's not something that white people can experience in our society. Stamping out racial prejudice is a worthwhile goal, but in my opinion it's an order of magnitude less important than ending racist systems. The focus on racial prejudice is likely to create lots of bad analysis (e.g. people who aspire to make the world "colorblind") from otherwise well-intentioned people, so I don't think it's tactically sound to focus on prejudice. I also do not believe there is any moral standing to criticize survivors of racism for having prejudicial feelings towards white people. It is a response. People build these walls because they're tired of getting hurt. I have tactical objections and moral concerns with many things concerning the NOI but I do not judge people for their involvement or promotion of it, for as long as it's motivated by a desire for self-liberation. I'm not sure what the "atrocious stuff" you're worried about from his past is, but nothing I know from his past I consider as "evil" that I have to "ignore." The coffee and creamer allegory, etc. simply don't bother me, because I understand them in historical context.
- ams6110 12y ago
  White people can and do experience this. I have experienced harassment by blacks because I am white. Never a physical attack, but certainly verbal slurs and taunting. Am I therefore morally justified to have a predjudicial opinion of blacks, because a few anonymous ones have harassed me? There isn't any institionalized discrimination in the USA any longer. There's a perception of it, but that's largely self reinforced. It's easier on my ego to tell myself I didn't get a job because of my race, rather than because another applicant was more qualified. Yes, there are individual prejudiced/racist people of all races and there always will be. But the institutionalized discrimination is gone. You say that "people see me and think all sorts of things about me because of things beyond my control." This is just reality. People judge others based on looks, whether they are obese, skinny, muscular, how they dress, whether they have facial hair or wear glasses, whether they are naturally or deliberately bald, how they carry themselves, how they execute a handshake, and any number of other things. Do you really give an automatic free pass to people who are involved with or support any idiology as long as it's in the cause of self-liberation? One of the other flaws of humans is that they are easily swayed by charasmatic leaders promising freedom from oppression. This often ends up badly for the supporters themselves when their leader turns out to be a tyrant, or for the people the leader set up to be the scapegoats.

by serf 12y ago

gajomi 12y ago

>There are better civil leaders to look up to -- some don't even require you to skim past their evil past. >He's was never an angel, he just improved with age. This is actually precisely what I find interesting and relevant about Malcolm X. I read his story not just as a man that people followed, but also as a man continuously undergoing a transformation. By virtue of his intellectual integrity in the face of his life experiences "El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz" manages to appear as a completely different person than "Malcolm Little". I am in agreement with you that the much of the activities of the NOI, and even things that Malcolm X was involved with on behalf of them, are absolutely not things to look up to. But again, that is why I think his story affects me, in that I see a man who has attained a degree of enlightenment by inspection of his own self. I find it easier to follow such a person than a saint.

danial 12y ago
His transformation is the most powerful part of this story and probably one of the reasons why so many readers of HN, who value continuous learning and self-improvement, can relate to it.

corpselord420 12y ago

>He could be called a 'reactionary racist' because his racism was not entirely fueled by sociocultural norms, but rather as a reaction to the hatred that he experienced from living near racism which was fueled socioculturally. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define%3Areactionary https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define%3Areactionary the term 'reactionary' has a specific meaning that is distinct from 'reactive'. its origins are the french revolution, where it was used to describe counterrevolutionary conservatives. it is always used to describe extreme conservativism, and is antonymous to radicalism

omgtehblackbloc 12y ago

"When one condemns a group for the actions of a few -- i'll never believe that to be correct." Racism in America is not an act, it's a caste system. It's not something you do, it's a form of social structuring. Black people are systematically disadvantaged, and white people receive privileges due to their race. So you're wrong that racism is just "the actions of a few". This implies that you are a neutral white person, and shouldn't be blamed for hate crimes or whatever, which are done by a minority of bad white racists whom you don't even like. In fact, the caste system of racism is maintained by all of us, in the same way the rest of the status quo is maintained. Mostly just by people being comfortable enough with the status quo that they don't try very hard to change it, and end up reinforcing it without even realizing. The caste system puts in place all the preconditions for the police brutality, the hate crimes, the denial of employment, etc. None of those things could happen without the caste system supporting and incentivizing them. So we're all responsible for the existence of racism - the whole society. But in particular, consider the group of people who systematically benefits from said caste system, and who despite having drastically more power, are doing pathetically little to eliminate the caste system. Were I looking at the situation from afar, it would seem completely reasonable to say "hey, fuck those people".

wisty 12y ago
What if you are wrong? You seem to think it's important to believe there is a caste system, which is moving close to Abrahamic Religion territory - you have to believe because (sometimes irrational) faith becomes the very bedrock of your belief system. You you don't believe, you are part of the problem, right?
- Avshalom 12y ago
  Well if tehblackbloc's wrong then racism in america is the action of quite a lot of people and the inaction of many more. "fuck those people" still aint exactly unreasonable. Though I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was "important to believe there is a caste system" from what was pretty much a cut and paste definition of racism as used in large chunks of civil rights activism/academia.

dannypgh 12y ago

Your concept of hatred here is what I would describe as self defense. I draw a distinction between racial prejudice - that is, prejudging people based on their race - and racism - which I understand as a social-political-economic system of institutionalized racial oppression. Racial prejudice is an order of magnitude less interesting to me than racial oppression. I am a person of color and I know that people see me and think all sorts of things about me because of things beyond my control; this bothers me, but it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I've been physically attacked and harassed for walking around my own neighborhood, and it doesn't bother me as much as the fact that I know that I and many of my loved ones will, even holding all else equal, have worse outcomes with job interviews, police, and law enforcement because of our race. To me that's real racism, and it's not something that white people can experience in our society. Stamping out racial prejudice is a worthwhile goal, but in my opinion it's an order of magnitude less important than ending racist systems. The focus on racial prejudice is likely to create lots of bad analysis (e.g. people who aspire to make the world "colorblind") from otherwise well-intentioned people, so I don't think it's tactically sound to focus on prejudice. I also do not believe there is any moral standing to criticize survivors of racism for having prejudicial feelings towards white people. It is a response. People build these walls because they're tired of getting hurt. I have tactical objections and moral concerns with many things concerning the NOI but I do not judge people for their involvement or promotion of it, for as long as it's motivated by a desire for self-liberation. I'm not sure what the "atrocious stuff" you're worried about from his past is, but nothing I know from his past I consider as "evil" that I have to "ignore." The coffee and creamer allegory, etc. simply don't bother me, because I understand them in historical context.

ams6110 12y ago
White people can and do experience this. I have experienced harassment by blacks because I am white. Never a physical attack, but certainly verbal slurs and taunting. Am I therefore morally justified to have a predjudicial opinion of blacks, because a few anonymous ones have harassed me? There isn't any institionalized discrimination in the USA any longer. There's a perception of it, but that's largely self reinforced. It's easier on my ego to tell myself I didn't get a job because of my race, rather than because another applicant was more qualified. Yes, there are individual prejudiced/racist people of all races and there always will be. But the institutionalized discrimination is gone. You say that "people see me and think all sorts of things about me because of things beyond my control." This is just reality. People judge others based on looks, whether they are obese, skinny, muscular, how they dress, whether they have facial hair or wear glasses, whether they are naturally or deliberately bald, how they carry themselves, how they execute a handshake, and any number of other things. Do you really give an automatic free pass to people who are involved with or support any idiology as long as it's in the cause of self-liberation? One of the other flaws of humans is that they are easily swayed by charasmatic leaders promising freedom from oppression. This often ends up badly for the supporters themselves when their leader turns out to be a tyrant, or for the people the leader set up to be the scapegoats.