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He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person

He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person in a negative way. Plus, the bug report he filed towards gcc is entirely matter-of-fact and polite.

Pacabel 12y ago
As I've worked with more and more younger developers ("Millennials" or "hipsters" or whatever you want to call them), I've noticed that many of them consider criticism of somebody's work to be a criticism of the work's creator himself or herself. I don't really know for sure why this is. Maybe they're more attached to what they've created, seeing it more as a work of art or something like that, instead of just a tool?
- kawsper 12y ago
  Sam Stephenson (Author of Prototype and Rbenv) talks about that here: http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code
xienze 12y ago
Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them.
- pdonis 12y ago
  As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them.
  - yohanatan 12y ago
    Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread?
    - Pacabel 12y ago
      Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being adults and professionals, they accept that they may just accidentally make mistakes when working on rather complex tools. They don't really care how the problems are pointed out, as their interest is in getting the problems fixed, and not taking it personally. These people are very different from, say, the young Rubyist who will have his feelings hurt when legitimate flaws are pointed out with something he's worked on. The GCC developers won't cry if you report a bug, and they won't deny that it exists to try to save face. Getting the bugs fixed is what matters to them, so they don't waste time allowing their feelings to be hurt by hyperbolic mailing list discussion.
      - yohanatan 12y ago
        That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.
        Pacabel 12y ago
        You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
        yohanatan 12y ago
        Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.
lamontcg 12y ago
Yeah, actually he did. He explicitly addressed it as "your compiler" and then proceeded to spew venom. That turns it into an attack against a person and not just code criticism.
mannykannot 12y ago
"He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0..." A number of people have made that point. So if I were to say "Hacker News' emotional maturity ranks below that of 12-year-olds, who generally recognize that contempt expressed for an inanimate entity is actually targeted at the persons who created the flaw in question", that would not be taken personally?
Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
There are many ways in which you can criticise a project without blaming those involved but as a rule when you see the phrase "We're talking "sloth that was dropped on the head as a baby" level retardation levels", that's not the space you're in.

Pacabel 12y ago

As I've worked with more and more younger developers ("Millennials" or "hipsters" or whatever you want to call them), I've noticed that many of them consider criticism of somebody's work to be a criticism of the work's creator himself or herself. I don't really know for sure why this is. Maybe they're more attached to what they've created, seeing it more as a work of art or something like that, instead of just a tool?

kawsper 12y ago
Sam Stephenson (Author of Prototype and Rbenv) talks about that here: http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code

xienze 12y ago

Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them.

pdonis 12y ago
As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them.
- yohanatan 12y ago
  Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread?
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    Well, the GCC developers that I know or have otherwise worked with at one time or another are mature men in their 30s or 40s, if not older at this point. Being adults and professionals, they accept that they may just accidentally make mistakes when working on rather complex tools. They don't really care how the problems are pointed out, as their interest is in getting the problems fixed, and not taking it personally. These people are very different from, say, the young Rubyist who will have his feelings hurt when legitimate flaws are pointed out with something he's worked on. The GCC developers won't cry if you report a bug, and they won't deny that it exists to try to save face. Getting the bugs fixed is what matters to them, so they don't waste time allowing their feelings to be hurt by hyperbolic mailing list discussion.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      That's all well and good but I fail to see how it is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out a logical fallacy in the post I responded to.
      - Pacabel 12y ago
        You're obviously implying that the GCC developers know of the Linux kernel mailing list archives, they could potentially read the emails, the content of the emails could potentially hurt their feelings, this could potentially be considered insulting to them, and that makes it wrong, and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is that the scenario you've built up isn't very realistic at all. The GCC developers I've dealt with would not waste their time getting offended. What was said in the mailing list, and its tone, is pretty much irrelevant. Getting the problem fixed is what matters to them.
        yohanatan 12y ago
        Not at all. I was making no positive logical argument. Merely pointing out the flaw in the one I responded to. To put it plainly, the post I responded to made the claim: "Linus was nice when he posted it to the GCC list; therefore everything is fine." This argument doesn't hinge on the GCC guys having thick skin but rather on the apparent unlikeliness of their seeing the more offensive messages in the kernel list. Further, even if we take into account the 'thick skin' argument, it does not excuse the behavior-- bad behavior is bad even if the affected party doesn't think so. This is why often times the State will prosecute domestic violence cases even when the affected spouse/partner does not wish to do so.

lamontcg 12y ago

Yeah, actually he did. He explicitly addressed it as "your compiler" and then proceeded to spew venom. That turns it into an attack against a person and not just code criticism.

mannykannot 12y ago

"He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0..." A number of people have made that point. So if I were to say "Hacker News' emotional maturity ranks below that of 12-year-olds, who generally recognize that contempt expressed for an inanimate entity is actually targeted at the persons who created the flaw in question", that would not be taken personally?

Tyrannosaurs 12y ago

There are many ways in which you can criticise a project without blaming those involved but as a rule when you see the phrase "We're talking "sloth that was dropped on the head as a baby" level retardation levels", that's not the space you're in.