14 ms·

Linus is just being Linus. I've been following him since Red Hat 5.2 and the open source culture has always been "colourful". His words shouldn't be taken too

Linus is just being Linus. I've been following him since Red Hat 5.2 and the open source culture has always been "colourful". His words shouldn't be taken too personally, just as getting bitten by a grizzly bear shouldn't be taken personal.

dalke 12y ago
Interesting analogy, but in a way I don't think you meant. Problem bears are translocated or killed. That's not due to taking things personally but to prevent future bad interactions. If your analogy has merit, shouldn't we do the same (metaphorically) with Torvalds?
- recalibrator 12y ago
  Good point. Bears are being forced into close proximity with humans due to urban sprawl. Their existence is threatened daily. Look too closely and the analogy breaks.
  - dalke 12y ago
    My belief is that the analogy breaks even looking at a distance. Relocation policies aren't based on taking things personally.
Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
That may be so but I'm pretty sure that pretty much every study that's been done on this says insulting people is demotivating and generally destructive behaviour. Linus can believe what he likes but the evidence contradicts him.
- riquito 12y ago
  > Linus can believe what he likes but the evidence contradicts him. The evidence shows that his way works to lead the people working at Linux.
  - nathanb 12y ago
    Only in a tautological sense. His way works to lead the people working on Linux because only the people who can deal with his way will work on Linux. Whether Linux would be more successful with a more benevolent dictator remains to be seen.
    - mden 12y ago
      That's not a tautology. There's a non-circular flow to the reasoning.
      - manicdee 12y ago
        The Dead Sea Effect is all about non-circular flows.
- mh_ 12y ago
  (just to play devils advocate) How do you figure "the evidence contradicts him" ? His attitude: launched & maintains the largest free collaborative dev known to man (?) which has generated squillions as a by-product. Yours/My attitude: makes some friends seems to me he has some runs on the scoreboard (and some facts on the ground)
  - themartorana 12y ago
    I didn't realize certain accomplishments allowed someone to be a total and utter dick - to ignore all decorum, respect, and human kindness to others. The more you know...
    - philh 12y ago
      That's not what's being discussed. Tyrannosaurs made a descriptive claim, mh_ questioned it. You're acting like mh_ made a normative claim. (And you're using the shitty rhetorical tactic of sarcasm, which allows you to tell someone that they're wrong without making any claims of your own, or even understanding what they're saying.)
      - themartorana 12y ago
        Your adding the modifier "shitty tactic" to the use of sarcasm gives away your inability to understand that tone is notoriously difficult to infer from online comments, and predisposition to try to prove how smart you are. But you're unable to see the irony in placing rules around the decorum of conversation in a topic about the lack of that very thing. But that's just supposition, not a normative claim. Edit: I wonder if I'd be down-voted so harshly if I was Linus Torvalds.
        nkurz 12y ago
        I wonder if I'd be down-voted so harshly if I was Linus Torvalds. From me, the answer is yes, and I hope that is true for others on HN as well. I'm sure it's not always appreciated, but I think it's important for influential people to receive honest feedback. Although in the rare cases when I downvote 'pg' on this board, I do wonder if some 'all-future-downvotes > /dev/null' switch might get flipped. For what it's worth, I downvoted your sarcastic grandparent, and upvoted this somewhat more constructive reply.
- Mithaldu 12y ago
  He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person in a negative way. Plus, the bug report he filed towards gcc is entirely matter-of-fact and polite.
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    As I've worked with more and more younger developers ("Millennials" or "hipsters" or whatever you want to call them), I've noticed that many of them consider criticism of somebody's work to be a criticism of the work's creator himself or herself. I don't really know for sure why this is. Maybe they're more attached to what they've created, seeing it more as a work of art or something like that, instead of just a tool?
    - kawsper 12y ago
      Sam Stephenson (Author of Prototype and Rbenv) talks about that here: http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code
  - xienze 12y ago
    Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them.
    - pdonis 12y ago
      As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them.
      - yohanatan 12y ago
        Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread?
- rsynnott 12y ago
  I'd be surprised if GCC maintainers take it personally. Software bugs are a fact of life. You should see how angry people get about JVM bugs.
- pdonis 12y ago
  > the evidence contradicts him The evidence is that the Linux kernel is one of the most successful large-scale coding projects ever. So whatever Linus is doing, it appears to be working.
  - Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
    Indeed, but that's not to say it wouldn't work even better if he behaved in the way that studies of organisational behaviour general show result in higher performance.
    - pdonis 12y ago
      Studies of behavior of certain types of organizations, perhaps. I'm extremely skeptical that such studies are applicable to "organizations" like the Linux kernel developers. If you have any specific studies that you think would be applicable, please give some links.
kabdib 12y ago
Man, I wouldn't tolerate an email like that from anybody. It's right up there with some of the most abusive management I've ever known. Linus might be "a great guy" or "just Linus being Linus" but email like this has no place in a cooperative environment.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  It really isn't that big of a deal, even though it does come off as immature. A professional would handle it like this: 1) He or she wouldn't choose to use such phrasing himself or herself, but also won't shy away from being firm and asking hard questions if they need to be asked. 2) If somebody else chooses such wording, the professional will engage his or her thick skin and ignore it, instead focusing on the parts that actually matter. It's resolving the problem at hand that's truly important, not wasting energy getting worked up over phrasing that somebody chose to use when describing the problem.
  - kabdib 12y ago
    The actual bug report was pretty decent. This email, not so much.
  - vfclists 12y ago
    Linus is afflicted with a mild form of Tourette's!
- gooseyard 12y ago
  It's easy to forget that these people are not employees of Linus Torvalds; they are members of a volunteer army.
- ayrx 12y ago
  How the hell is this abusive? Notice how he isn't cursing at any one person? Notice how he points out exactly what gcc is doing wrong? Notice how he made a bug report to get the problem fixed? Notice how no one in that email thread had any problems with his tone?
  - 12y ago
_delirium 12y ago
> open source culture has always been "colourful" Some open source culture, yes. However there are plenty of friendly open-source communities as well. If you want to contribute to free-software and don't want to interact with a Stallman/Torvalds/Drepper/deRaadt type personality in doing so, that's a perfectly legitimate preference, and you can find lots of projects that fit the bill!
- jpgvm 12y ago
  This is something I wish people understood. The kernel community is old.. you can't walk in there an expect people to conform to your new-age ideas. That being said you are more than welcome to start new projects and choose not to include more abrasive people. This is the beauty of culture, everyones is different.

dalke 12y ago

Interesting analogy, but in a way I don't think you meant. Problem bears are translocated or killed. That's not due to taking things personally but to prevent future bad interactions. If your analogy has merit, shouldn't we do the same (metaphorically) with Torvalds?

recalibrator 12y ago
Good point. Bears are being forced into close proximity with humans due to urban sprawl. Their existence is threatened daily. Look too closely and the analogy breaks.
- dalke 12y ago
  My belief is that the analogy breaks even looking at a distance. Relocation policies aren't based on taking things personally.

Tyrannosaurs 12y ago

That may be so but I'm pretty sure that pretty much every study that's been done on this says insulting people is demotivating and generally destructive behaviour. Linus can believe what he likes but the evidence contradicts him.

riquito 12y ago
> Linus can believe what he likes but the evidence contradicts him. The evidence shows that his way works to lead the people working at Linux.
- nathanb 12y ago
  Only in a tautological sense. His way works to lead the people working on Linux because only the people who can deal with his way will work on Linux. Whether Linux would be more successful with a more benevolent dictator remains to be seen.
  - mden 12y ago
    That's not a tautology. There's a non-circular flow to the reasoning.
    - manicdee 12y ago
      The Dead Sea Effect is all about non-circular flows.
mh_ 12y ago
(just to play devils advocate) How do you figure "the evidence contradicts him" ? His attitude: launched & maintains the largest free collaborative dev known to man (?) which has generated squillions as a by-product. Yours/My attitude: makes some friends seems to me he has some runs on the scoreboard (and some facts on the ground)
- themartorana 12y ago
  I didn't realize certain accomplishments allowed someone to be a total and utter dick - to ignore all decorum, respect, and human kindness to others. The more you know...
  - philh 12y ago
    That's not what's being discussed. Tyrannosaurs made a descriptive claim, mh_ questioned it. You're acting like mh_ made a normative claim. (And you're using the shitty rhetorical tactic of sarcasm, which allows you to tell someone that they're wrong without making any claims of your own, or even understanding what they're saying.)
    - themartorana 12y ago
      Your adding the modifier "shitty tactic" to the use of sarcasm gives away your inability to understand that tone is notoriously difficult to infer from online comments, and predisposition to try to prove how smart you are. But you're unable to see the irony in placing rules around the decorum of conversation in a topic about the lack of that very thing. But that's just supposition, not a normative claim. Edit: I wonder if I'd be down-voted so harshly if I was Linus Torvalds.
      - nkurz 12y ago
        I wonder if I'd be down-voted so harshly if I was Linus Torvalds. From me, the answer is yes, and I hope that is true for others on HN as well. I'm sure it's not always appreciated, but I think it's important for influential people to receive honest feedback. Although in the rare cases when I downvote 'pg' on this board, I do wonder if some 'all-future-downvotes > /dev/null' switch might get flipped. For what it's worth, I downvoted your sarcastic grandparent, and upvoted this somewhat more constructive reply.
Mithaldu 12y ago
He has not insulted any people though. He has said bad things about the piece of software called gcc-4.9.0, but he has not once in that email adressed a person in a negative way. Plus, the bug report he filed towards gcc is entirely matter-of-fact and polite.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  As I've worked with more and more younger developers ("Millennials" or "hipsters" or whatever you want to call them), I've noticed that many of them consider criticism of somebody's work to be a criticism of the work's creator himself or herself. I don't really know for sure why this is. Maybe they're more attached to what they've created, seeing it more as a work of art or something like that, instead of just a tool?
  - kawsper 12y ago
    Sam Stephenson (Author of Prototype and Rbenv) talks about that here: http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code http://sstephenson.us/posts/you-are-not-your-code
- xienze 12y ago
  Uh, do you think GCC just spontaneously sprung forth into being? No, it was created by people, and Linus is indirectly insulting them.
  - pdonis 12y ago
    As a number of people have already commented, when Linus posted the bug report to the GCC project, he was careful not to insult them.
    - yohanatan 12y ago
      Do you think those people exist in some sort of vacuum where they don't have access to (or will become aware of) the kernel mailing list thread?
rsynnott 12y ago
I'd be surprised if GCC maintainers take it personally. Software bugs are a fact of life. You should see how angry people get about JVM bugs.
pdonis 12y ago
> the evidence contradicts him The evidence is that the Linux kernel is one of the most successful large-scale coding projects ever. So whatever Linus is doing, it appears to be working.
- Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
  Indeed, but that's not to say it wouldn't work even better if he behaved in the way that studies of organisational behaviour general show result in higher performance.
  - pdonis 12y ago
    Studies of behavior of certain types of organizations, perhaps. I'm extremely skeptical that such studies are applicable to "organizations" like the Linux kernel developers. If you have any specific studies that you think would be applicable, please give some links.

kabdib 12y ago

Man, I wouldn't tolerate an email like that from anybody. It's right up there with some of the most abusive management I've ever known. Linus might be "a great guy" or "just Linus being Linus" but email like this has no place in a cooperative environment.

Pacabel 12y ago
It really isn't that big of a deal, even though it does come off as immature. A professional would handle it like this: 1) He or she wouldn't choose to use such phrasing himself or herself, but also won't shy away from being firm and asking hard questions if they need to be asked. 2) If somebody else chooses such wording, the professional will engage his or her thick skin and ignore it, instead focusing on the parts that actually matter. It's resolving the problem at hand that's truly important, not wasting energy getting worked up over phrasing that somebody chose to use when describing the problem.
- kabdib 12y ago
  The actual bug report was pretty decent. This email, not so much.
- vfclists 12y ago
  Linus is afflicted with a mild form of Tourette's!
gooseyard 12y ago
It's easy to forget that these people are not employees of Linus Torvalds; they are members of a volunteer army.
ayrx 12y ago
How the hell is this abusive? Notice how he isn't cursing at any one person? Notice how he points out exactly what gcc is doing wrong? Notice how he made a bug report to get the problem fixed? Notice how no one in that email thread had any problems with his tone?
- 12y ago

_delirium 12y ago

> open source culture has always been "colourful" Some open source culture, yes. However there are plenty of friendly open-source communities as well. If you want to contribute to free-software and don't want to interact with a Stallman/Torvalds/Drepper/deRaadt type personality in doing so, that's a perfectly legitimate preference, and you can find lots of projects that fit the bill!

jpgvm 12y ago
This is something I wish people understood. The kernel community is old.. you can't walk in there an expect people to conform to your new-age ideas. That being said you are more than welcome to start new projects and choose not to include more abrasive people. This is the beauty of culture, everyones is different.