4 ms·

No, we understand them all right. We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. Perhaps it's more a culture difference than a language barrier.

by Svip 12y ago

cstross 12y ago
Same goes for vernacular Scots, where the F-word isn't far off being verbal punctuation, roughly equivalent to "eh" in Canadian English.
- Intermernet 12y ago
  Yes, but "Fook" isn't actually a swear word anywhere except Scotland, so it's ok.
walshemj 12y ago
Maybe up to a point - though it can make you look like your going off the deep end over trivial matters.
jnbiche 12y ago
>We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. So you're speaking on behalf of the entire non-English speaking world? I think it's important here to distinguish between swearing about something ("aww, fuck") versus swearing at someone ("fuck you"). If you are more inclined to swear about something, then yes, perhaps you can say you're "less prudish". But if you're more inclined to swear at someone, then it has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with aggression and rudeness. Is your culture more aggressive and rude than that of many English-speaking cultures? Some are....
- Svip 12y ago
  I admit I was deliberately generalising, because so was the parent. My culture might seem more aggressive and rude, but more often than not Northern/Central Europeans will tend to be less subtle than English speaking people. This can sometime come across as aggressive and perhaps even rude, even if no swear words are used. As an example: Linus refers to the term 'Management by perkele', a Swedish term referring to Finnish management, that he himself uses. The word »perkele» is generally considered on par or worse than the English term 'fuck' (in the context of a swear word). Effectively, this term could be translated to 'Fucking Management', but whereas in Sweden this term is used rather publicly, it would hardly be conceivable to have such language in an English-speaking environment. It's not that we are completely casual with swear words, it's just that they usually have a context, like you said; about something. Against someone is generally frowned upon. (Although, the latter reasoning usually have people objectify the person they are really swearing at.)
  - _delirium 12y ago
    I do think the foreigness is part of it. Danes in particular treat English swearing much different than Danish swearing. If you used seriously off-color Danish words in a professional environment, people would be shocked; but you can say "fuck" all you want, because it's foreign and doesn't really carry any weight.
    - walshemj 12y ago
      Which is my point and got down voted for it.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - kybernetikos 12y ago
    > The word »perkele» is generally considered on par or worse than the English term 'fuck' (in the context of a swear word). Effectively, this term could be translated to 'Fucking Management', but whereas in Sweden this term is used rather publicly, it would hardly be conceivable to have such language in an English-speaking environment. Doesn't that mean precisely that it isn't on a par with or worse than the English term 'fuck'?
- coldtea 12y ago
  >So you're speaking on behalf of the entire non-English speaking world? Well, you spoke for the non-English speaking world too, and you don't even belong to it, unlike the parent. If anything, he was less paternalistic. >But if you're more inclined to swear at someone, then it has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with aggression and rudeness. Is your culture more aggressive and rude than that of many English-speaking cultures? Some are.... You can be aggresive and rude without ever uttering a swear word. The only thing that makes swear words appear "worse" in this regard is some kind of prudishness.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    >Well, you spoke for the non-English speaking world too, and you don't even belong to it, unlike the parent. If anything, he was less paternalistic. I thought it was obvious I was speaking for myself. Or are you mistaking me for the GP? By the way, how do you know I don't belong to the non-native-English speaking world?
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Well, I did mistook you for the GP :-)
- gone35 12y ago
  There is indeed evidence of significant cross-cultural differences in both [1,2,3]. Cursing itself is universal; but its contextual, relative social acceptability as offense and interjection varies quite a bit across societies. Put in another way: even cursing that you might perceive as self-evidently "aggressive and rude" --in the limbic sense of the word-- might be perceived quite differently by someone from another culture. And viceversa (eg American-style drunken loudness, to think of one). [1] http://www.amazon.com/Swearing-A-Cross-Cultural-Linguistic-Study/dp/0230576311 http://www.amazon.com/Swearing-A-Cross-Cultural-Linguistic-S... [2] http://www.gelfand.umd.edu/science.pdf http://www.gelfand.umd.edu/science.pdf [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/05/15/1317937111.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/05/15/1317937111.full...
coldtea 12y ago
Yep. Most of us understand them just fine. It's not really difficult to know what are the swear words in a foreign language, and what impact each of them has. Plus, Linus is no "foreigner" in that sense. He has been speaking english for 30+ years, has had professional correspondence in english for 2+ decades, and has worked in several american companies. And he was located in the states for decades too, if I am not mistaken. And of course he is not some naive foreigner, he is hiqhly intelligent and technical, and can understand such things as the emotional etc impact of words very well (he has also explained hilself, several times). The difference is, as the parent said, he is not prudish. He enjoys their use.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  How do you define "prudish"? Does it have something to do with sex or body functions? Because if that's what you think most native-English-speakers think of when people use these swear words, you're wrong. There are plenty of swear words that have nothing to do with sex or body functions that shock people just as much or more than those that do originate with those things.
  - dtech 12y ago
    Definition of prude from Webster: > a person who is excessively or priggishly attentive to propriety or decorum So prudishness doesn't always have to be about sex either.
pessimizer 12y ago
>No, we understand them all right. Understanding them is easy, because when used as swear words instead of during discussions about fucking or shitting, they don't mean anything. 'Motherfucker' just doesn't mean anything. >We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. Perhaps it's more a culture difference than a language barrier. There are a lot of native English speakers who swear a lot; they're generally[1] aware of the impression that they're making when they do it, though. Maybe this is what you see as prudish: it's a somewhat unusual thing about English that we have taboo words that are taboo no matter what context (and weren't once untaboo words that started to be seen as euphemisms, therefore avoided), rather than just taboo things that you can say or taboo modes of speech when you're talking to a superior or an elder. The history of 'bloody'[2] should disabuse you of any notion that swearing in English has to do with prudery or sex. Noticing that non-native speakers sometimes don't completely get the effect of English swearing generally comes from knowing non-native English speakers and knowing the impression that they're trying to make, and watching them misjudge the tone that swearing introduces and failing at what they're trying to do. Like swearing while meeting someone's parents, or loudly within earshot of a lot of kids. I'm sure Linus probably started his swearing thing by misjudging tone, even though at this point he realizes exactly what he's doing. [1] I say 'generally', because there are differences between groups of English speakers as to which words are magical, and the frequency of use tolerated. [2] This article starts with a super interesting discussion of 'bloody': http://www.salon.com/2013/05/11/the_modern_history_of_swearing_where_all_the_dirtiest_words_come_from/ http://www.salon.com/2013/05/11/the_modern_history_of_sweari...
- DonHopkins 12y ago
  >"or loudly within earshot of a lot of kids." In case you never noticed, swearing loudly within earshot of kids almost always makes them laugh uproariously. And what could be more uplifting and pleasant to the ear than the sound of the laughter of children? I have more of a problem with cheerfully lying through your teeth to children about deceptive frauds like Santa Claus and Jesus and the Tooth Fairy and the Stork who brought your little sister. What's worse: kids learning that adults occasionally swear, or kids learning that adults systematically lie to them?
rsynnott 12y ago
I don't think it's even an all-English-speaker thing; rude words are sometimes practically used as punctuation in Ireland, Scotland, and parts of England.
- walshemj 12y ago
  yes but its like a distinct "industrial" subculture I don't use my birth (black country) dialect at work and online.
walshemj 12y ago
Yes but you need to understand the culture your swearing in or you come across as the dumb outsider aka the "Sheriff J.W. Pepper" Its like a non German using humour to break the ice at a meeting - never going to go well.

No, we understand them all right. We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. Perhaps it's more a culture difference than a language barrier.

by Svip 12y ago

No, we understand them all right. We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. Perhaps it's more a culture difference than a language barrier.

cstross 12y ago

Same goes for vernacular Scots, where the F-word isn't far off being verbal punctuation, roughly equivalent to "eh" in Canadian English.

Intermernet 12y ago
Yes, but "Fook" isn't actually a swear word anywhere except Scotland, so it's ok.

walshemj 12y ago

Maybe up to a point - though it can make you look like your going off the deep end over trivial matters.

jnbiche 12y ago

>We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. So you're speaking on behalf of the entire non-English speaking world? I think it's important here to distinguish between swearing about something ("aww, fuck") versus swearing at someone ("fuck you"). If you are more inclined to swear about something, then yes, perhaps you can say you're "less prudish". But if you're more inclined to swear at someone, then it has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with aggression and rudeness. Is your culture more aggressive and rude than that of many English-speaking cultures? Some are....

Svip 12y ago
I admit I was deliberately generalising, because so was the parent. My culture might seem more aggressive and rude, but more often than not Northern/Central Europeans will tend to be less subtle than English speaking people. This can sometime come across as aggressive and perhaps even rude, even if no swear words are used. As an example: Linus refers to the term 'Management by perkele', a Swedish term referring to Finnish management, that he himself uses. The word »perkele» is generally considered on par or worse than the English term 'fuck' (in the context of a swear word). Effectively, this term could be translated to 'Fucking Management', but whereas in Sweden this term is used rather publicly, it would hardly be conceivable to have such language in an English-speaking environment. It's not that we are completely casual with swear words, it's just that they usually have a context, like you said; about something. Against someone is generally frowned upon. (Although, the latter reasoning usually have people objectify the person they are really swearing at.)
- _delirium 12y ago
  I do think the foreigness is part of it. Danes in particular treat English swearing much different than Danish swearing. If you used seriously off-color Danish words in a professional environment, people would be shocked; but you can say "fuck" all you want, because it's foreign and doesn't really carry any weight.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Which is my point and got down voted for it.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- kybernetikos 12y ago
  > The word »perkele» is generally considered on par or worse than the English term 'fuck' (in the context of a swear word). Effectively, this term could be translated to 'Fucking Management', but whereas in Sweden this term is used rather publicly, it would hardly be conceivable to have such language in an English-speaking environment. Doesn't that mean precisely that it isn't on a par with or worse than the English term 'fuck'?
coldtea 12y ago
>So you're speaking on behalf of the entire non-English speaking world? Well, you spoke for the non-English speaking world too, and you don't even belong to it, unlike the parent. If anything, he was less paternalistic. >But if you're more inclined to swear at someone, then it has nothing to do with prudishness and everything to do with aggression and rudeness. Is your culture more aggressive and rude than that of many English-speaking cultures? Some are.... You can be aggresive and rude without ever uttering a swear word. The only thing that makes swear words appear "worse" in this regard is some kind of prudishness.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  >Well, you spoke for the non-English speaking world too, and you don't even belong to it, unlike the parent. If anything, he was less paternalistic. I thought it was obvious I was speaking for myself. Or are you mistaking me for the GP? By the way, how do you know I don't belong to the non-native-English speaking world?
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Well, I did mistook you for the GP :-)
gone35 12y ago
There is indeed evidence of significant cross-cultural differences in both [1,2,3]. Cursing itself is universal; but its contextual, relative social acceptability as offense and interjection varies quite a bit across societies. Put in another way: even cursing that you might perceive as self-evidently "aggressive and rude" --in the limbic sense of the word-- might be perceived quite differently by someone from another culture. And viceversa (eg American-style drunken loudness, to think of one). [1] http://www.amazon.com/Swearing-A-Cross-Cultural-Linguistic-Study/dp/0230576311 http://www.amazon.com/Swearing-A-Cross-Cultural-Linguistic-S... [2] http://www.gelfand.umd.edu/science.pdf http://www.gelfand.umd.edu/science.pdf [3] http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/05/15/1317937111.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/05/15/1317937111.full...

coldtea 12y ago

Yep. Most of us understand them just fine. It's not really difficult to know what are the swear words in a foreign language, and what impact each of them has. Plus, Linus is no "foreigner" in that sense. He has been speaking english for 30+ years, has had professional correspondence in english for 2+ decades, and has worked in several american companies. And he was located in the states for decades too, if I am not mistaken. And of course he is not some naive foreigner, he is hiqhly intelligent and technical, and can understand such things as the emotional etc impact of words very well (he has also explained hilself, several times). The difference is, as the parent said, he is not prudish. He enjoys their use.

jnbiche 12y ago
How do you define "prudish"? Does it have something to do with sex or body functions? Because if that's what you think most native-English-speakers think of when people use these swear words, you're wrong. There are plenty of swear words that have nothing to do with sex or body functions that shock people just as much or more than those that do originate with those things.
- dtech 12y ago
  Definition of prude from Webster: > a person who is excessively or priggishly attentive to propriety or decorum So prudishness doesn't always have to be about sex either.

pessimizer 12y ago

>No, we understand them all right. Understanding them is easy, because when used as swear words instead of during discussions about fucking or shitting, they don't mean anything. 'Motherfucker' just doesn't mean anything. >We are just not generally as prudish as English-speakers. Perhaps it's more a culture difference than a language barrier. There are a lot of native English speakers who swear a lot; they're generally[1] aware of the impression that they're making when they do it, though. Maybe this is what you see as prudish: it's a somewhat unusual thing about English that we have taboo words that are taboo no matter what context (and weren't once untaboo words that started to be seen as euphemisms, therefore avoided), rather than just taboo things that you can say or taboo modes of speech when you're talking to a superior or an elder. The history of 'bloody'[2] should disabuse you of any notion that swearing in English has to do with prudery or sex. Noticing that non-native speakers sometimes don't completely get the effect of English swearing generally comes from knowing non-native English speakers and knowing the impression that they're trying to make, and watching them misjudge the tone that swearing introduces and failing at what they're trying to do. Like swearing while meeting someone's parents, or loudly within earshot of a lot of kids. I'm sure Linus probably started his swearing thing by misjudging tone, even though at this point he realizes exactly what he's doing. [1] I say 'generally', because there are differences between groups of English speakers as to which words are magical, and the frequency of use tolerated. [2] This article starts with a super interesting discussion of 'bloody': http://www.salon.com/2013/05/11/the_modern_history_of_swearing_where_all_the_dirtiest_words_come_from/ http://www.salon.com/2013/05/11/the_modern_history_of_sweari...

DonHopkins 12y ago
>"or loudly within earshot of a lot of kids." In case you never noticed, swearing loudly within earshot of kids almost always makes them laugh uproariously. And what could be more uplifting and pleasant to the ear than the sound of the laughter of children? I have more of a problem with cheerfully lying through your teeth to children about deceptive frauds like Santa Claus and Jesus and the Tooth Fairy and the Stork who brought your little sister. What's worse: kids learning that adults occasionally swear, or kids learning that adults systematically lie to them?

rsynnott 12y ago

I don't think it's even an all-English-speaker thing; rude words are sometimes practically used as punctuation in Ireland, Scotland, and parts of England.

walshemj 12y ago
yes but its like a distinct "industrial" subculture I don't use my birth (black country) dialect at work and online.

walshemj 12y ago

Yes but you need to understand the culture your swearing in or you come across as the dumb outsider aka the "Sheriff J.W. Pepper" Its like a non German using humour to break the ice at a meeting - never going to go well.