5 ms·

One objection I have is with hackathons. From my observations most hackathons aren't particularly inclusive environments - they may do more harm than good. Exa

One objection I have is with hackathons. From my observations most hackathons aren't particularly inclusive environments - they may do more harm than good. Examples include the intense focus on competition and prizes (I didn't think it was a good idea for YC Hacks to explicitly advertise the prize of getting an interview), the fact that many hackathons now have applications processes where more applicants are rejected than accepted (so that the net effect is more exclusion than inclusion), and the general vibe of having to power through the night with redbull while cranking out code. Most hackathons I've attended I've usually gotten this exclusive, rather than inclusive vibe. From my own experiences, the most exclusive hackathons have been the larger, more monied, more applied-to ones that have more applicants than attendees. The most inclusive hackathons have been smaller, intimate hackathons where the problem has been not having enough attendees! EDIT (reply to below): I'm referring to the general feeling of inclusion vs. exclusion (of newcomers, people not sure if they fit the mold of <quote>hardcore<unquote> coders, etc.). The next step is to argue that exclusion discourages minorities from pursuing the field.

tptacek 12y ago
Why is competition a diversity problem? To me, the idea that aggressive competition selects for a specific age, gender, or ethnicity is itself problematic. Not to mention that I think that's not true.
- benmathes 12y ago
  Broadly speaking, competition definitely creates sex-based selection-bias. Men self-select into competitions more than women, and are more motivated by them. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201210/when-competition-helps-and-hurts-motivation http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201210/when-c... https://www3.nd.edu/~wevans1/fresh_honor_seminar/vesterland.pdf https://www3.nd.edu/~wevans1/fresh_honor_seminar/vesterland.... I am not saying men are more capable, just more likely to self-select into the competition. Read up on what professional coaches of womens vs mens teams say.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    We work in a deeply, irretrievably competitive industry. The ability to thrive in a competitive environment is a requirement at many, perhaps most, startups. Women perform in the industry just fine, but are victimized by the perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.
    - shawndrost 12y ago
      Your question was, "Why is competition a diversity problem?" The answer is "science indicates that competition motivates genders differently". The fact that our industry is deeply, irretrievably competitive is (imho) part of why it's deeply, irretrievably gender-skewed. (Caveats: you're right that women perform in the industry just fine. Also, many women are motivated and successful in competitive environments, and those women are negatively affected by perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.)
      - tptacek 12y ago
        No. The industry must be competitive. Companies compete in the market. People must stop promoting the fiction that women are poor competitors. That's a stereotype that just happens to be awfully convenient for male entrepreneurs.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        While companies must compete to exist, I don't think that requires work environment or culture to be competitive in nature. Interactions between coworkers should be fundamentally cooperative and cooperation between companies (such as contribution to open source projects) can also benefit all involved. The tech industry is not a zero sum game.
        tptacek 12y ago
        If you're reading "competition" as a license to be an asshole to team members, then we agree, but think that point is banal. Otherwise, I reject this argument. I see it as mostly waving off gender concerns. "Let's not address our broken perceptions about the capabilities of women, but instead think about how we can rework the entire fabric of the industry." I'm sure everyone's going to get right on that.
- argonaut 12y ago
  Since I seem to have ignited a huge sub-thread on competition, I'd like to clarify my intent. There are varying degrees and kinds of "competition." The competition I had in mind is the kind of competition associated with people pulling all-nighters for the entire weekend, loading up on Red-Bulls, and worrying about the best ways to pitch judges (and manipulate those pitches). That kind of competition is generally unrepresentative of the "cooperative competition" of the tech industry.
rmason 12y ago
Most but not all hackathons. I founded a hackathon and we made it a priority in our first planning meeting that women would be made to feel welcome. I got up on stage at the event and said specifically what was acceptable and not acceptable behavior. I think if more hackathons did that there wouldn't be all the atrocities that I read about in Techcrunch.
- lacus 12y ago
  This is really great. Obviously, we can't prevent every bad outcome, but I think sometimes people don't realize how little efforts like this actually go a really long way.
gailees 12y ago
This year, our theme for MHacks (http://mhacks.org http://mhacks.org) is that "Hackathons are for everone." We've changed our advertising to focus on the first time hacker experience rather than competition, lowered the prize amounts, and have adapted our application to be as blind to experience as possible. In my experience, smaller hackathons are actually much more exclusive because they tend to be much more homogenous due to the self-selection bias; whereas, at a larger hackathon with thousands of applications, we have the opportunity to focus our outreach to welcome a much more diverse audience.

tptacek 12y ago

Why is competition a diversity problem? To me, the idea that aggressive competition selects for a specific age, gender, or ethnicity is itself problematic. Not to mention that I think that's not true.

benmathes 12y ago
Broadly speaking, competition definitely creates sex-based selection-bias. Men self-select into competitions more than women, and are more motivated by them. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201210/when-competition-helps-and-hurts-motivation http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-wise/201210/when-c... https://www3.nd.edu/~wevans1/fresh_honor_seminar/vesterland.pdf https://www3.nd.edu/~wevans1/fresh_honor_seminar/vesterland.... I am not saying men are more capable, just more likely to self-select into the competition. Read up on what professional coaches of womens vs mens teams say.
- tptacek 12y ago
  We work in a deeply, irretrievably competitive industry. The ability to thrive in a competitive environment is a requirement at many, perhaps most, startups. Women perform in the industry just fine, but are victimized by the perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.
  - shawndrost 12y ago
    Your question was, "Why is competition a diversity problem?" The answer is "science indicates that competition motivates genders differently". The fact that our industry is deeply, irretrievably competitive is (imho) part of why it's deeply, irretrievably gender-skewed. (Caveats: you're right that women perform in the industry just fine. Also, many women are motivated and successful in competitive environments, and those women are negatively affected by perception that their gender prevents them from being competitive.)
    - tptacek 12y ago
      No. The industry must be competitive. Companies compete in the market. People must stop promoting the fiction that women are poor competitors. That's a stereotype that just happens to be awfully convenient for male entrepreneurs.
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        While companies must compete to exist, I don't think that requires work environment or culture to be competitive in nature. Interactions between coworkers should be fundamentally cooperative and cooperation between companies (such as contribution to open source projects) can also benefit all involved. The tech industry is not a zero sum game.
        tptacek 12y ago
        If you're reading "competition" as a license to be an asshole to team members, then we agree, but think that point is banal. Otherwise, I reject this argument. I see it as mostly waving off gender concerns. "Let's not address our broken perceptions about the capabilities of women, but instead think about how we can rework the entire fabric of the industry." I'm sure everyone's going to get right on that.
argonaut 12y ago
Since I seem to have ignited a huge sub-thread on competition, I'd like to clarify my intent. There are varying degrees and kinds of "competition." The competition I had in mind is the kind of competition associated with people pulling all-nighters for the entire weekend, loading up on Red-Bulls, and worrying about the best ways to pitch judges (and manipulate those pitches). That kind of competition is generally unrepresentative of the "cooperative competition" of the tech industry.

rmason 12y ago

Most but not all hackathons. I founded a hackathon and we made it a priority in our first planning meeting that women would be made to feel welcome. I got up on stage at the event and said specifically what was acceptable and not acceptable behavior. I think if more hackathons did that there wouldn't be all the atrocities that I read about in Techcrunch.

lacus 12y ago
This is really great. Obviously, we can't prevent every bad outcome, but I think sometimes people don't realize how little efforts like this actually go a really long way.

gailees 12y ago

This year, our theme for MHacks (http://mhacks.org http://mhacks.org) is that "Hackathons are for everone." We've changed our advertising to focus on the first time hacker experience rather than competition, lowered the prize amounts, and have adapted our application to be as blind to experience as possible. In my experience, smaller hackathons are actually much more exclusive because they tend to be much more homogenous due to the self-selection bias; whereas, at a larger hackathon with thousands of applications, we have the opportunity to focus our outreach to welcome a much more diverse audience.