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Great job, Tim. Looks really solid. I really think you should team up with someone to offer hosted versions of this to churches (take the WordPress model). My

Great job, Tim. Looks really solid. I really think you should team up with someone to offer hosted versions of this to churches (take the WordPress model). My church uses The City [0] which charges anywhere from $20 to hundreds of dollars a month. It works well but I definitely think there's room for others. Also, Zondervan acquired The City from the developer/Mars Hill (he was an Amazon engineer too IIRC). I also think it would be huge to let churches connect a Stripe account and add giving via cc. Anyway, I think this is awesome and I respect your passion. If you ever need help with anything, drop me a line. [0] http://www.onthecity.org/pricing/ http://www.onthecity.org/pricing/

jashmenn 12y ago
Our church also uses The City and I'd say it's fine but not great. There's a lot of room for another startup in this space - I've considered it more than once. The problem for me, on a personal level, is that it's very hard to mix business and the church. On the one hand, the technology used in the church generally lags far behind what is available and there are real benefits to the church body by having tailored technology. On the other hand, sometimes the new tech doesn't fit for cultural reasons. For example, it still feels unsavory to, say, pass a square credit card reader along with the offering plate. Additionally, one has to be careful not to be in it merely for the money (which becomes harder as the organization scales). At the entrepreneur you're torn between fiduciary duty to your organization/employees/investors and the (greater) responsibility to God and his church. It's really hard to keep that balance. Jesus did turn over the tables of the money changers, after all. In an ideal world your employees/investors are aligned with your vision but in practice, it can get really cloudy. (And we haven't even talked about if you're willing to sell to other denominations yet which, presumably, are using your software as tool to spread an ideology you explicitly believe to be false.) One model I think could work is for software engineers to found a non-profit and essentially raise funding/customer commitments from larger churches in order to build the software that they'll eventually use. That said, it's hard enough to find engineers who are "good" in the industry at large, much less when you add in the qualification that they have to be so deeply ideologically in agreement with your vision.
- chrisgoodrich 12y ago
  This is something I have been pondering for a bit now. As the chair of my church's outreach ministry, I struggle with church communications. The church is a unique community of groups, sub-groups, etc. And the activities are just as varied. There are many activities that need to be communicated and only so many channels available to do so. Not to mention making sure that everyone is connected and "plugged-in." You touch on some good points on how to monetize and build a for profit company that is theologically sound. I have this idea that I'm considering for my next venture. The idea is to build a self-funded startup with a mix of talented developers, designers, and product people. The company would not ever take outside investment so that the focus is never on dollars and return. Instead the focus is to build awesome software that makes a difference (inside and outside the church), grow our craft, and enjoy life. Nobody will earn millions, but we'll sure have fun making a living to support our families.
  - Valien 12y ago
    Ah, welcome to a dilemna I've been wrestling for a couple of years. I actually have an idea/product that has started/stopped a few times that's geared for missionaries, pastors, evangelists, etc. I just need to find someone smart like the OP here to help execute the vision.
- callmeed 12y ago
  Well said. I actually built an MVP for a "Kickstarter for Missionaries" crowdfunding project a couple years ago. I thought (and still do, to some degree), it could be a good way for churches and missionaries to get steady/predictable support (which has always been a problem for my friends who do it). But, the same dilemmas exist. Figuring out a business model I was comfortable with seemed hard. And, like you said, the more open you are about other faiths/sects using your platform, the more likely you are to tick off hardline people.
  - jashmenn 12y ago
    Yes! I completely agree that there is some improvement possible here. There is a sense in which social networks in general have greatly helped the fund-raising process for missionaries. I don't mean to seem unscrupulous, but the process of raising money for a missionary is not unlike what is done by a sales rep or a realtor: you have to keep yourself at the top of people's minds or the money dries up. In that regard, software like facebook and even contactually are invaluable. But, it seems to me, there's even more work to be done around custom platforms. That said, how are you going to make money? Take 30% off the top? 10%? People (rightly) want to make their money go as directly as possible and so often won't even pay by credit card because you lose 3% in fees. These platforms do cost money to run and not every church has someone on staff qualified to host an open-source solution. So if someone doesn't create hosted services that are financially viable, everyone loses out. I also know several genuinely good people who desire to go to seminary but simply aren't able to take 3 years off of work (because they have families etc.). Of course you always have the risk of folks taking advantage of the system, but in the success / genuine / majority case, I feel that a kickstarter for people who want to do domestic ministry is a real need right now. If anyone is interested in working on (and working through) these kinds of problems, drop me a line. My email is in my profile.
thret 12y ago
Agree re. Stripe. YMMV but in Australia when people give to their Church via CC it is tax deductible.
- lotharbot 12y ago
  in the US, any giving to the church is tax deductible -- as long as the church documents it. This is why churches often have little envelopes that you can write your name on when giving cash.
- timv 12y ago
  In general, churches in Australia are not tax deductible. Some of the activities they perform may be, but that requires a relatively complex separation of accounts where one "business" is deductible, but the other is not. It can be done, but my experience is that most churches don't bother since the administrative burden exceeds the value.
  - thret 12y ago
    I must admit to being ignorant of the specifics. My brother in law is a pastor, and he mentioned that he tithes/donates by CC because it is tax deductible. He used to teach accounting, so I am sure that he understands the system.

jashmenn 12y ago

Our church also uses The City and I'd say it's fine but not great. There's a lot of room for another startup in this space - I've considered it more than once. The problem for me, on a personal level, is that it's very hard to mix business and the church. On the one hand, the technology used in the church generally lags far behind what is available and there are real benefits to the church body by having tailored technology. On the other hand, sometimes the new tech doesn't fit for cultural reasons. For example, it still feels unsavory to, say, pass a square credit card reader along with the offering plate. Additionally, one has to be careful not to be in it merely for the money (which becomes harder as the organization scales). At the entrepreneur you're torn between fiduciary duty to your organization/employees/investors and the (greater) responsibility to God and his church. It's really hard to keep that balance. Jesus did turn over the tables of the money changers, after all. In an ideal world your employees/investors are aligned with your vision but in practice, it can get really cloudy. (And we haven't even talked about if you're willing to sell to other denominations yet which, presumably, are using your software as tool to spread an ideology you explicitly believe to be false.) One model I think could work is for software engineers to found a non-profit and essentially raise funding/customer commitments from larger churches in order to build the software that they'll eventually use. That said, it's hard enough to find engineers who are "good" in the industry at large, much less when you add in the qualification that they have to be so deeply ideologically in agreement with your vision.

chrisgoodrich 12y ago
This is something I have been pondering for a bit now. As the chair of my church's outreach ministry, I struggle with church communications. The church is a unique community of groups, sub-groups, etc. And the activities are just as varied. There are many activities that need to be communicated and only so many channels available to do so. Not to mention making sure that everyone is connected and "plugged-in." You touch on some good points on how to monetize and build a for profit company that is theologically sound. I have this idea that I'm considering for my next venture. The idea is to build a self-funded startup with a mix of talented developers, designers, and product people. The company would not ever take outside investment so that the focus is never on dollars and return. Instead the focus is to build awesome software that makes a difference (inside and outside the church), grow our craft, and enjoy life. Nobody will earn millions, but we'll sure have fun making a living to support our families.
- Valien 12y ago
  Ah, welcome to a dilemna I've been wrestling for a couple of years. I actually have an idea/product that has started/stopped a few times that's geared for missionaries, pastors, evangelists, etc. I just need to find someone smart like the OP here to help execute the vision.
callmeed 12y ago
Well said. I actually built an MVP for a "Kickstarter for Missionaries" crowdfunding project a couple years ago. I thought (and still do, to some degree), it could be a good way for churches and missionaries to get steady/predictable support (which has always been a problem for my friends who do it). But, the same dilemmas exist. Figuring out a business model I was comfortable with seemed hard. And, like you said, the more open you are about other faiths/sects using your platform, the more likely you are to tick off hardline people.
- jashmenn 12y ago
  Yes! I completely agree that there is some improvement possible here. There is a sense in which social networks in general have greatly helped the fund-raising process for missionaries. I don't mean to seem unscrupulous, but the process of raising money for a missionary is not unlike what is done by a sales rep or a realtor: you have to keep yourself at the top of people's minds or the money dries up. In that regard, software like facebook and even contactually are invaluable. But, it seems to me, there's even more work to be done around custom platforms. That said, how are you going to make money? Take 30% off the top? 10%? People (rightly) want to make their money go as directly as possible and so often won't even pay by credit card because you lose 3% in fees. These platforms do cost money to run and not every church has someone on staff qualified to host an open-source solution. So if someone doesn't create hosted services that are financially viable, everyone loses out. I also know several genuinely good people who desire to go to seminary but simply aren't able to take 3 years off of work (because they have families etc.). Of course you always have the risk of folks taking advantage of the system, but in the success / genuine / majority case, I feel that a kickstarter for people who want to do domestic ministry is a real need right now. If anyone is interested in working on (and working through) these kinds of problems, drop me a line. My email is in my profile.

thret 12y ago

Agree re. Stripe. YMMV but in Australia when people give to their Church via CC it is tax deductible.

lotharbot 12y ago
in the US, any giving to the church is tax deductible -- as long as the church documents it. This is why churches often have little envelopes that you can write your name on when giving cash.
timv 12y ago
In general, churches in Australia are not tax deductible. Some of the activities they perform may be, but that requires a relatively complex separation of accounts where one "business" is deductible, but the other is not. It can be done, but my experience is that most churches don't bother since the administrative burden exceeds the value.
- thret 12y ago
  I must admit to being ignorant of the specifics. My brother in law is a pastor, and he mentioned that he tithes/donates by CC because it is tax deductible. He used to teach accounting, so I am sure that he understands the system.