5 ms·

Option 1 leads to "no, after you" behavior, steers two cars directly at each other, and probably would be a disaster.

by nardi 12y ago

peeters 12y ago
Speaking about educating drivers, I wish we could just kill that mentality once and for all. It drives me crazy when someone obviously beats me to a stop sign, then waves me through as though they're doing me a favor. No my friend, you're just making it slower for both of us by not following the established rules of the road. Thankfully my city is replacing as many stop signs as possible with traffic circles, where you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you.
- dubfan 12y ago
  > Thankfully my city is replacing as many stop signs as possible with traffic circles, where you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you. In Seattle, we have traffic circles in many of our residential neighborhoods. People still do this here. Another common thing is people taking lefts by just driving on the left side of the circle (I've had people honk at me for taking lefts the correct way)
  - ericcumbee 12y ago
    we have a couple around here near campus. The problem is shockingly few people know how to behave in a traffic circle.
    - chrisseaton 12y ago
      "few people know how to behave in a traffic circle" Tell them this: imagine a big circular road. Then imagine other roads joining it with T junctions. Then imagine the road is one-way. Finally just shrink the road in your head. That's all it is!
      - nhaehnle 12y ago
        There's one more rule: traffic on the circular road has priority.
        sjwright 12y ago
        That rule already applies. It's no different on a circular road or roundabout; traffic already on a road has priority over traffic turning onto it.
        nhaehnle 12y ago
        "Traffic already on a road" is a concept that does not apply in this scenario, as all traffic is already on a road in all cases. There is no a priori way to distinguish between the circular road and the roads leading towards it. In countries where you drive on the right, I believe the typical default rule is that traffic coming from the right has priority. In roundabouts, this would mean that traffic on the roundabout must wait for those joining it. However, the rule is reversed for roundabouts. (This definitely applies to Germany, and I suspect that it applies in most other countries as well.)
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        watwut 12y ago
        I guess that depends where you live. That thing is intersection like any other and the one on the right has a priority. So, unless there is a sign, the car about to enter the circular road should go first. And yes, all roundabouts have signs in here.
        sjwright 12y ago
        I live in Australia, but I've also driven in the UK and parts of Europe. Any roundabout I've used has worked in the same way -- as you approach the roundabout, you must give way to vehicles already on the roundabout. Relevant to the circular road with T-intersection analogy, I'm reading the Wikipedia page[0] on T-intersections and I must admit the concept that "vehicles on the right always have the right-of-way" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But I suppose that weird rule would screw up the circular road metaphor. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-way_junction#Right-of-way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-way_junction#Right-of-wa...
    - underwater 12y ago
      They're trivial to learn. I don't see how people can use that as an excuse. Imagine someone saying "I don't understand traffic lights, they're so confusing."
    - zo1 12y ago
      We have the same problem. Unfortunately, it's compounded by the fact that the local municipality here likes creating very small traffic circles with a small bump in the middle. The end result is that people end up treating them like 4-way stops and yield as such.
  - a_e_k 12y ago
    I've sometimes waited at those circles. Many of those neighborhoods you mention also have streets just wide enough for one vehicle at a time to get through. I'd rather wait at the circle for an oncoming vehicle than have to worry about who will yield to whom and whether there's a sufficient gap in the parked cars to do so.
    - DrewRWx 12y ago
      This can be seen in miniature on my university campus. Thankfully some new surface markings make it slightly more obvious that they are going the wrong way. Out of curiosity, is your traffic circle configured in a way where taking that left requires no turning while the proper right actually takes effort?
      - a_e_k 12y ago
        Pretty much. Most of the ones that I've seen here in Seattle are basically small landscaped areas with a curb in the middle of the intersection. Probably not much more than six feet in diameter or so. (At the one nearest my house the sidewalk corners aren't even rounded any to accomodate them.) These really aren't true roundabouts. But yes, turning left instead of going around them should take no more effort than a typical left turn between small streets, while doing it the proper way requires a fairly tight turn. They seem mainly designed to force cars to slow down.
- drcube 12y ago
  > you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you. You'd be surprised. Or else the vast majority of drivers around here are complete idiots. They basically treat traffic circles like a confusing 4-way stop sign. It's infuriating.
- allworknoplay 12y ago
  This is the worst when you're on a bike -- the car tries to be nice and let you go, but you can't assume that they're not going to zip out and kill you if you do, so everyone just fucking sits and waits, when you could have just zipped through behind them. It's insane.
malandrew 12y ago
I reckon you could do the following to fix this issue: (1) add the barrier from option 2 to option 1, so that all the merging happens at the front. (2) Keep the "make both parties move structure" from option 1, but don't make it 100% symmetrical. Instead, nudge the top lane down just enough so they are forced to slow down and somewhat zipper in with the bottom lane.

Option 1 leads to "no, after you" behavior, steers two cars directly at each other, and probably would be a disaster.

by nardi 12y ago

Option 1 leads to "no, after you" behavior, steers two cars directly at each other, and probably would be a disaster.

Speaking about educating drivers, I wish we could just kill that mentality once and for all. It drives me crazy when someone obviously beats me to a stop sign, then waves me through as though they're doing me a favor. No my friend, you're just making it slower for both of us by not following the established rules of the road. Thankfully my city is replacing as many stop signs as possible with traffic circles, where you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you.

dubfan 12y ago
> Thankfully my city is replacing as many stop signs as possible with traffic circles, where you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you. In Seattle, we have traffic circles in many of our residential neighborhoods. People still do this here. Another common thing is people taking lefts by just driving on the left side of the circle (I've had people honk at me for taking lefts the correct way)
- ericcumbee 12y ago
  we have a couple around here near campus. The problem is shockingly few people know how to behave in a traffic circle.
  - chrisseaton 12y ago
    "few people know how to behave in a traffic circle" Tell them this: imagine a big circular road. Then imagine other roads joining it with T junctions. Then imagine the road is one-way. Finally just shrink the road in your head. That's all it is!
    - nhaehnle 12y ago
      There's one more rule: traffic on the circular road has priority.
      - sjwright 12y ago
        That rule already applies. It's no different on a circular road or roundabout; traffic already on a road has priority over traffic turning onto it.
        nhaehnle 12y ago
        "Traffic already on a road" is a concept that does not apply in this scenario, as all traffic is already on a road in all cases. There is no a priori way to distinguish between the circular road and the roads leading towards it. In countries where you drive on the right, I believe the typical default rule is that traffic coming from the right has priority. In roundabouts, this would mean that traffic on the roundabout must wait for those joining it. However, the rule is reversed for roundabouts. (This definitely applies to Germany, and I suspect that it applies in most other countries as well.)
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        watwut 12y ago
        I guess that depends where you live. That thing is intersection like any other and the one on the right has a priority. So, unless there is a sign, the car about to enter the circular road should go first. And yes, all roundabouts have signs in here.
        sjwright 12y ago
        I live in Australia, but I've also driven in the UK and parts of Europe. Any roundabout I've used has worked in the same way -- as you approach the roundabout, you must give way to vehicles already on the roundabout. Relevant to the circular road with T-intersection analogy, I'm reading the Wikipedia page[0] on T-intersections and I must admit the concept that "vehicles on the right always have the right-of-way" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But I suppose that weird rule would screw up the circular road metaphor. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-way_junction#Right-of-way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-way_junction#Right-of-wa...
  - underwater 12y ago
    They're trivial to learn. I don't see how people can use that as an excuse. Imagine someone saying "I don't understand traffic lights, they're so confusing."
  - zo1 12y ago
    We have the same problem. Unfortunately, it's compounded by the fact that the local municipality here likes creating very small traffic circles with a small bump in the middle. The end result is that people end up treating them like 4-way stops and yield as such.
- a_e_k 12y ago
  I've sometimes waited at those circles. Many of those neighborhoods you mention also have streets just wide enough for one vehicle at a time to get through. I'd rather wait at the circle for an oncoming vehicle than have to worry about who will yield to whom and whether there's a sufficient gap in the parked cars to do so.
  - DrewRWx 12y ago
    This can be seen in miniature on my university campus. Thankfully some new surface markings make it slightly more obvious that they are going the wrong way. Out of curiosity, is your traffic circle configured in a way where taking that left requires no turning while the proper right actually takes effort?
    - a_e_k 12y ago
      Pretty much. Most of the ones that I've seen here in Seattle are basically small landscaped areas with a curb in the middle of the intersection. Probably not much more than six feet in diameter or so. (At the one nearest my house the sidewalk corners aren't even rounded any to accomodate them.) These really aren't true roundabouts. But yes, turning left instead of going around them should take no more effort than a typical left turn between small streets, while doing it the proper way requires a fairly tight turn. They seem mainly designed to force cars to slow down.
drcube 12y ago
> you'd have to be a complete idiot to yield to someone who got there after you. You'd be surprised. Or else the vast majority of drivers around here are complete idiots. They basically treat traffic circles like a confusing 4-way stop sign. It's infuriating.
allworknoplay 12y ago
This is the worst when you're on a bike -- the car tries to be nice and let you go, but you can't assume that they're not going to zip out and kill you if you do, so everyone just fucking sits and waits, when you could have just zipped through behind them. It's insane.

malandrew 12y ago

I reckon you could do the following to fix this issue: (1) add the barrier from option 2 to option 1, so that all the merging happens at the front. (2) Keep the "make both parties move structure" from option 1, but don't make it 100% symmetrical. Instead, nudge the top lane down just enough so they are forced to slow down and somewhat zipper in with the bottom lane.