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> 2. I think people can reasonably disagree here. An example: a potential customer asks a sales guy during a demo "...and will we be able to export a list of ou

by afro88 12y ago

> 2. I think people can reasonably disagree here. An example: a potential customer asks a sales guy during a demo "...and will we be able to export a list of our users?" Answer: "yes, absolutely". The customer signs. The sales person then runs to dev team and says "we need to build this export functionality before they launch". Did the potential customer think that feature already existed? Probably. Is anyone being hurt? I don't think so, so long as the export functionality can actually be built before the customer launches. I'm not OP, but you still don't get what's wrong here. You're still lying. Why not say "Not yet, but we have a great dev team and we would gladly add this feature in for you before launch." It's honest, and frankly sounds more impressive to the client.

dragontamer 12y ago
Agreed. It is great that he is being open and honest about his morals. But if I ever learned that a business partner were so dishonest with me, I'd drop them in a heartbeat. Business relations are all about trust and integrity.
- luma 12y ago
  He's not being open and honest about anything here. He's a liar. He lied to his partners, he lied to his investors, he lied to his employees, he lied to his customers, he lied to the IRS, and he lied to the press. Every single item on his list here is the result of him stretching the truth and calling it "hacks". That's fun new word for "lies".
  - dragontamer 12y ago
    I mean, he's speaking openly about his morals here. Which is undoubtedly a good thing. Obviously, he's a liar to his business partners, his customers, and his employees. But right now, he isn't a liar to us quite yet.
    - dragontamer 12y ago
      And it should be noted, that based on the replies here and the feedback, it sounds like he might not be a liar anymore. Hopefully he's seeing the issues that his employees have to put up with when he puts them into this kind of situation. So he has gained some personal growth from this event. All's well in the long run, but its difficult to make up for broken trust.
k__ 12y ago
It's so common that most people think this is how every one works. I worked with many sales people who got CEOs later, because they made big sales, but most of them, because they sold stuff they didn't had, because they didn't really know the customers. In extreme cases, this leads to overworked devs and rich sales people, when the devs are good and the features aren't that hard to implement. If the features are too hard, it leads to angry customers and the company losing much money.
roel_v 12y ago
" It's honest, and frankly sounds more impressive to the client." LOL, how much have you sold in your career? Because really, it seems like you've never had a sales meeting at all.
girvo 12y ago
Look, ethically, I totally agree with you. Practically though, if you've worked in sales, you'll know that what the OP is talking about isn't just something that happens often, but is basically the life-blood of some rather large companies. Now, I dislike it because it puts the impetus on the developers to deal with it if it goes wrong, and that sort of crunch-time stress is just crazy, but it's also not something that the OP has come up with on his own...
- Natsu 12y ago
  Smarter clients (and I agree that there are plenty of not-so-smart clients), will actually double-check on these things before buying in various ways. They can, for example, request an evaluation version to use, check with the support department exactly what's actually supported, or simply have them demonstrate exactly how the product can meet that requirement. I'm sure there are more ways of doing that too, though, so these are just my observations. And yeah, don't trust the sales guys :)

by afro88 12y ago

dragontamer 12y ago

Agreed. It is great that he is being open and honest about his morals. But if I ever learned that a business partner were so dishonest with me, I'd drop them in a heartbeat. Business relations are all about trust and integrity.

luma 12y ago
He's not being open and honest about anything here. He's a liar. He lied to his partners, he lied to his investors, he lied to his employees, he lied to his customers, he lied to the IRS, and he lied to the press. Every single item on his list here is the result of him stretching the truth and calling it "hacks". That's fun new word for "lies".
- dragontamer 12y ago
  I mean, he's speaking openly about his morals here. Which is undoubtedly a good thing. Obviously, he's a liar to his business partners, his customers, and his employees. But right now, he isn't a liar to us quite yet.
  - dragontamer 12y ago
    And it should be noted, that based on the replies here and the feedback, it sounds like he might not be a liar anymore. Hopefully he's seeing the issues that his employees have to put up with when he puts them into this kind of situation. So he has gained some personal growth from this event. All's well in the long run, but its difficult to make up for broken trust.

k__ 12y ago

It's so common that most people think this is how every one works. I worked with many sales people who got CEOs later, because they made big sales, but most of them, because they sold stuff they didn't had, because they didn't really know the customers. In extreme cases, this leads to overworked devs and rich sales people, when the devs are good and the features aren't that hard to implement. If the features are too hard, it leads to angry customers and the company losing much money.

roel_v 12y ago

" It's honest, and frankly sounds more impressive to the client." LOL, how much have you sold in your career? Because really, it seems like you've never had a sales meeting at all.

girvo 12y ago

Look, ethically, I totally agree with you. Practically though, if you've worked in sales, you'll know that what the OP is talking about isn't just something that happens often, but is basically the life-blood of some rather large companies. Now, I dislike it because it puts the impetus on the developers to deal with it if it goes wrong, and that sort of crunch-time stress is just crazy, but it's also not something that the OP has come up with on his own...

Natsu 12y ago
Smarter clients (and I agree that there are plenty of not-so-smart clients), will actually double-check on these things before buying in various ways. They can, for example, request an evaluation version to use, check with the support department exactly what's actually supported, or simply have them demonstrate exactly how the product can meet that requirement. I'm sure there are more ways of doing that too, though, so these are just my observations. And yeah, don't trust the sales guys :)