4 ms·

>> Oh wonderful! So if I (as a customer or as a service) make a mistake I'm completely hosed. And since the service isn't insured (yay no regulation), a mistake

>> Oh wonderful! So if I (as a customer or as a service) make a mistake I'm completely hosed. And since the service isn't insured (yay no regulation), a mistake on one customer's account can harm everyone else. There is no reason why the payment processor can't implement some security in case of errors. What is more, with credit cards you are handing out your details every time you do a purchase. Have you ever heard of stolen credit card data? When you transfer BTC your don't need to send all your private details that would permit an unwanted second purchase. >>Fiat -> BTC -> Fiat adds an unnecessary link to the Fiat -> Fiat transfer. How could this possibly be more efficient? In a BTC economy there is no need to do the conversion.

nmrm 12y ago
> There is no reason why the payment processor can't implement some security in case of errors. Sure, and banks already do that. A lot of it, in fact. My point wasn't that these things aren't possible with BTC. Rather, my point was that these problems don't go away just because you're not using a traditional currency. Which means the overhead associated with these problems doesn't go away, either. It's just that BTC is really small right now, and so the cost + difficulty of addressing these problems at scale isn't yet apparent. > with credit cards you are handing out your details every time you do a purchase. (1) No one makes payroll with a credit card; (2) BTC transfers -- especially at scale -- aren't as fast as CC transfers without someone assuming some risk; (3) CC companies basically exist to assume that risk and mitigate; (4) if you're going to design a new payment processing technology appropriate for POS transactions, creating a new currency is absolutely not necessary. > In a BTC economy Well.
- baddox 12y ago
  > My point wasn't that these things aren't possible with BTC. Rather, my point was that these problems don't go away just because you're not using a traditional currency. Which means the overhead associated with these problems doesn't go away, either. I think the advantage is that alternatives to the traditional banking system introduce competition in the banking and financial services industry. Obviously, overhead doesn't magically go away, but I would expect competition to result in an increase in efficiency.
  - nmrm 12y ago
    I absolutely agree. edit/justification: given the length of this thread and other interactions, I think this 'agree' post is a non-trivial recognition of consensus on a point rather than a non-contribution.
superuser2 12y ago
>Have you ever heard of stolen credit card data? Yes. Like everyone else in the US, I have zero fraud liability on my credit card. Stolen credit card data is quite simply not my problem, nor is it any consumer's problem.
- icebraining 12y ago
  It is if it increases the cost for each transaction. Specially now that Visa and MasterCard are being sued for preventing retailers from "steering customers to cheaper payment forms"[1]. You don't even have to defend Bitcoin - in my country, we have a sane push-style payment system (implemented by the banking system) and it's much cheaper, especially since it only has a fixed fee. The only reason you could not care about this problem is because Visa and MasterCard have been using their size to get other customers to subsidize card-paying ones, but that seems to be ending. [1] http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2014/07/18/visa-mastercard-lose-ruling-versus-retailers-over-credit-card-fees/ http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2014/07/18/visa-master...
  - superuser2 12y ago
    Okay, but if I use Bitcoin I'm still paying a price that has credit card fraud baked into it, while putting myself at unnecessary risk because I can't chargeback. It's giving free money to the retailer. Do you really think merchants are going to lower their prices? Wouldn't it make more sense to just pocket the difference?
    - icebraining 12y ago
      Do you really think merchants are going to lower their prices? Wouldn't it make more sense to just pocket the difference? They already sued and own for the right of giving lower prices to other customers (or actually, charge more to card users), so there's no reason to think otherwise.
      - superuser2 12y ago
        Is it a regional thing? I have never seen any retailer offer a cash discount or a credit card fee. Some businesses are cash-only, but I've never seen anyone actually exercise this right. And cash is actually free, whereas BTC they're still paying small transaction fees and Coinbase's cut when converting back to USD.

nmrm 12y ago

> There is no reason why the payment processor can't implement some security in case of errors. Sure, and banks already do that. A lot of it, in fact. My point wasn't that these things aren't possible with BTC. Rather, my point was that these problems don't go away just because you're not using a traditional currency. Which means the overhead associated with these problems doesn't go away, either. It's just that BTC is really small right now, and so the cost + difficulty of addressing these problems at scale isn't yet apparent. > with credit cards you are handing out your details every time you do a purchase. (1) No one makes payroll with a credit card; (2) BTC transfers -- especially at scale -- aren't as fast as CC transfers without someone assuming some risk; (3) CC companies basically exist to assume that risk and mitigate; (4) if you're going to design a new payment processing technology appropriate for POS transactions, creating a new currency is absolutely not necessary. > In a BTC economy Well.

baddox 12y ago
> My point wasn't that these things aren't possible with BTC. Rather, my point was that these problems don't go away just because you're not using a traditional currency. Which means the overhead associated with these problems doesn't go away, either. I think the advantage is that alternatives to the traditional banking system introduce competition in the banking and financial services industry. Obviously, overhead doesn't magically go away, but I would expect competition to result in an increase in efficiency.
- nmrm 12y ago
  I absolutely agree. edit/justification: given the length of this thread and other interactions, I think this 'agree' post is a non-trivial recognition of consensus on a point rather than a non-contribution.

superuser2 12y ago

>Have you ever heard of stolen credit card data? Yes. Like everyone else in the US, I have zero fraud liability on my credit card. Stolen credit card data is quite simply not my problem, nor is it any consumer's problem.

icebraining 12y ago
It is if it increases the cost for each transaction. Specially now that Visa and MasterCard are being sued for preventing retailers from "steering customers to cheaper payment forms"[1]. You don't even have to defend Bitcoin - in my country, we have a sane push-style payment system (implemented by the banking system) and it's much cheaper, especially since it only has a fixed fee. The only reason you could not care about this problem is because Visa and MasterCard have been using their size to get other customers to subsidize card-paying ones, but that seems to be ending. [1] http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2014/07/18/visa-mastercard-lose-ruling-versus-retailers-over-credit-card-fees/ http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2014/07/18/visa-master...
- superuser2 12y ago
  Okay, but if I use Bitcoin I'm still paying a price that has credit card fraud baked into it, while putting myself at unnecessary risk because I can't chargeback. It's giving free money to the retailer. Do you really think merchants are going to lower their prices? Wouldn't it make more sense to just pocket the difference?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Do you really think merchants are going to lower their prices? Wouldn't it make more sense to just pocket the difference? They already sued and own for the right of giving lower prices to other customers (or actually, charge more to card users), so there's no reason to think otherwise.
    - superuser2 12y ago
      Is it a regional thing? I have never seen any retailer offer a cash discount or a credit card fee. Some businesses are cash-only, but I've never seen anyone actually exercise this right. And cash is actually free, whereas BTC they're still paying small transaction fees and Coinbase's cut when converting back to USD.