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Yes, I think NATO membership counts as getting something in return.

jacquesm 12y ago
If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.
- ufmace 12y ago
  If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
    - euroclydon 12y ago
      Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
    - ufmace 12y ago
      The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?

If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.

ufmace 12y ago
If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
  - euroclydon 12y ago
    Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
  - ufmace 12y ago
    The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?