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First, I'm not american and I don't make excuses for the US here but my feeling is that if what Poland gave to US was secret, then it's very likely that what Po

First, I'm not american and I don't make excuses for the US here but my feeling is that if what Poland gave to US was secret, then it's very likely that what Poland received from US in return is secret too. Apart from that, what we see here is that governments aren't really bounded by laws, treaties nor conventions(not even constitutions). The only thing that bounds a "willing" government is another government with a bigger army or some nukes.

jacquesm 12y ago
The atmosphere in Poland has been rather gung-ho pro American no matter what, this is likely related to the proximity of America's (former?) arch enemy Russia with whom the Poles have an extremely uneasy relationship, mostly due to having been repeatedly run over from the East (as well as the West) in living memory. See the statements of Polish politicians regarding the missile shield for some good examples of this.
- euroclydon 12y ago
  Yes, I think NATO membership counts as getting something in return.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.
    - ufmace 12y ago
      If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
        euroclydon 12y ago
        Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
        ufmace 12y ago
        The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?
- leaveyou 12y ago
  As a "romanian person" I'm very familiar with that atmosphere too and in my opinion there is an ongoing "security" trade between US and Poland, Romania and other countries in the area in the sense that US provides the security guarantees (and who knows what else) and the partner countries compensate through favorable contracts for US corporations, various political concessions (and who knows what else).
  - k3oni 12y ago
    I'm there with you on this as another romanian&american person. This seems to all have started showing more with the air defense strategy in the region pushed by US some time ago but i am sure this goes back even more than that. At the same time these deals do sound like they are a bit one sided, in favor of US.
- 127001brewer 12y ago
  The book, "The Eagle Unbowed" [1], is an excellent history of Poland (and the Polish people) during the Second World War - I've only read about half the book, but gives valuable insights into the geopolitical atmosphere of Eastern Europe. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbowed-halik-kochanski-review http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbow...
- CaptainZapp 12y ago
  What annoys a lot of central European countries (ex eastern block countries) is the fact that their enthusiasm for the US is greeted with complete indifference. Czechs, Poles and others still need an US visa, despite the fact that they are fully fledged EU members and part of the Schengen treaty. So the general attitude is no more quite as gung-ho as it was in the beginning of the millenium.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    Fwiw, Czechs no longer do. Six ex-eastern-bloc countries were added to the visa-waiver program in 2008: Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia.
    - CaptainZapp 12y ago
      I stand corrected. Thanks
- gdy 12y ago
  Like this one? J The latest revelations concern Radosław Sikorski, Poland’s Oxford-educated foreign minister, who was caught dismissing Poland’s relationship with the United States as “worthless.” “Complete bullshit. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians, and we'll think that everything is super because we gave the Americans a blow job,” he allegedly says in the recording from January 2014, published in Wprost on June 23. “Losers. Complete losers.” http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-government-radek-sikorski-USA-090 http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-governm...

jacquesm 12y ago

The atmosphere in Poland has been rather gung-ho pro American no matter what, this is likely related to the proximity of America's (former?) arch enemy Russia with whom the Poles have an extremely uneasy relationship, mostly due to having been repeatedly run over from the East (as well as the West) in living memory. See the statements of Polish politicians regarding the missile shield for some good examples of this.

euroclydon 12y ago
Yes, I think NATO membership counts as getting something in return.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  If all Poland got in return for running a secret CIA jail including torture of prisoners on their soil was a NATO membership I would consider that to be a very bad trade.
  - ufmace 12y ago
    If a NATO membership with the implication of American military support deters Russia from, say, invading Poland, or demanding that they do things much worse than running a prison under threat of invasion, then it sounds priceless.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Makes you wonder what would have happened if Ukraine had been part of NATO in the current circumstances. Would the 'separatists' have had any chance at all? Or would the situation be the same as it is today? Effectively it is Russia calling the shots in the separatist movement, the two people heading it are native Russians that have conveniently moved to the Crimea just at the time the uprising started. Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations No NATO member country has been attacked before like this, and Poland does not have a large contingent of ethnic Russians that could be used to stage a similar situation there as far as I know.
      - euroclydon 12y ago
        Contemplating the vast expansion of NATO in tranches four and five is indeed interesting, if not daunting. Would the US really come to the aid of a former Soviet Union nation if Russia were hell-bent of taking it back?
      - ufmace 12y ago
        The very idea of it is fraught with geopolitical tension for just that reason. As it stands, NATO membership comes with the implication that the US and Western Europe will respond to any invasion with their full force, up to and including strategic nuclear warfare if needed. Russia would surely see the very proposal to include Ukraine as intensely threatening. It could be a giant bluff in a way - would we dare to include Ukraine, knowing how deeply it threatens Russia? Would Russia dare to do anything direct about it, like a preemptive invasion, maybe before they were a full member? If they did, would we respond, drawing ourselves into a large war, or ignore it, potentially diluting the meaning of NATO and tempting Russia to try invading other NATO members as well? Would Russia respond vigorously but indirectly, essentially starting a new Cold War?
leaveyou 12y ago
As a "romanian person" I'm very familiar with that atmosphere too and in my opinion there is an ongoing "security" trade between US and Poland, Romania and other countries in the area in the sense that US provides the security guarantees (and who knows what else) and the partner countries compensate through favorable contracts for US corporations, various political concessions (and who knows what else).
- k3oni 12y ago
  I'm there with you on this as another romanian&american person. This seems to all have started showing more with the air defense strategy in the region pushed by US some time ago but i am sure this goes back even more than that. At the same time these deals do sound like they are a bit one sided, in favor of US.
127001brewer 12y ago
The book, "The Eagle Unbowed" [1], is an excellent history of Poland (and the Polish people) during the Second World War - I've only read about half the book, but gives valuable insights into the geopolitical atmosphere of Eastern Europe. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbowed-halik-kochanski-review http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/nov/09/the-eagle-unbow...
CaptainZapp 12y ago
What annoys a lot of central European countries (ex eastern block countries) is the fact that their enthusiasm for the US is greeted with complete indifference. Czechs, Poles and others still need an US visa, despite the fact that they are fully fledged EU members and part of the Schengen treaty. So the general attitude is no more quite as gung-ho as it was in the beginning of the millenium.
- _delirium 12y ago
  Fwiw, Czechs no longer do. Six ex-eastern-bloc countries were added to the visa-waiver program in 2008: Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia.
  - CaptainZapp 12y ago
    I stand corrected. Thanks
gdy 12y ago
Like this one? J The latest revelations concern Radosław Sikorski, Poland’s Oxford-educated foreign minister, who was caught dismissing Poland’s relationship with the United States as “worthless.” “Complete bullshit. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians, and we'll think that everything is super because we gave the Americans a blow job,” he allegedly says in the recording from January 2014, published in Wprost on June 23. “Losers. Complete losers.” http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-government-radek-sikorski-USA-090 http://www.vice.com/read/polands-wiretapping-scandal-governm...