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Copy paste, printing and networking. Biggest usability misses of Linux. I don't consider these technical issues...but usability issues. Things like insisting o

Copy paste, printing and networking. Biggest usability misses of Linux. I don't consider these technical issues...but usability issues. Things like insisting on keeping the install ISO at 750 mb, leaves seamless driver support out of the todo list because...hey, there are no drivers anyway. I'm really surprised there is not a paid version of Linux with these features baked in. I would GLADLY pay for all these (as well as the royalties for mp3,flash, etc) EDIT: does anyone know if systemd-networkd would make things better [1] [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-networkd https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-networkd

scrollaway 12y ago
Sound isn't too great either. The BlueZ developers for example decided to drop HSF/HSP support in BlueZ 5.x [1], which means there is no way to get a bluetooth headset (with a microphone) working on Linux anymore; there's just no way. Although it's not like sound is great on Windows either. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/5.0/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/5....
- Someone1234 12y ago
  > Although it's not like sound is great on Windows either. Pre-Vista I might have agreed with you but now? I think Windows has quite good audio stack. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Windows_Vista#Audio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Wind...
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Vista was the first time I suddenly found myself unable to use my headphones on a Windows machine. Sounds was forced to go out through the speakers. I eventually rebooted to fix it. I feel things are moving backwards.
    - izacus 12y ago
      Your single anectodal evidence of single non-updated driver does not really prove anything about "going backwards" or tell anything about the merit of new audio stack.
- atomicfiredoll 12y ago
  I'm just here (on my laptop with speakers that have mysteriously stopped working) to second any comments relating to the sorry state of Linux audio.
  - taylorbuley 12y ago
    It's a good thing my brightness settings are stuck at 100% or I wouldn't be able to upvote this comment.
    - oftenwrong 12y ago
      Does xbacklight work?
      - aeroevan 12y ago
        My macbook pro (running linux) has a strange issue where I have to run setpci -v -H1 -s 00:01.00 BRIDGE_CONTROL=0 before the backlight works (when using official NVIDIA drivers, nouveau works fine). My T410 thinkpad required some XOrg.conf setting get the backlight working. It really is strange how bad the NVIDIA drivers are with this backlight stuff.
- krakensden 12y ago
  Apparently the BlueZ team only works on Android now, even though it's no longer shipped with AOSP (or even any phones?)
  - andor 12y ago
    The reason appears to be that Intel wants Android to work well on their hardware, and the new BlueDroid stack doesn't support any Intel-specific features. Instead of fixing the sketchy (details in article) BlueDroid code, they decided to make BlueZ a drop-in replacement for BlueDroid: http://lwn.net/Articles/597293/ http://lwn.net/Articles/597293/
- sgnelson 12y ago
  The irony of this to me is that I started using Linux back in 1998 or so (though I've used it off and on for the past 15 years, I'm far from an expert, just a hobbyist) But in 1998, Sound on Linux was almost impossible to get working correctly (that's hyperbole, but it wasn't too far off) It's gotten better, but not by much. But considering 15 years have gone by, that's faint praise indeed.
krakensden 12y ago
I haven't had trouble with printing in years- in fact, I can basically print on everything with no configuration, and people with OS X and Windows laptops seem to have lots of problems.
- sciurus 12y ago
  Used many wireless printers or scanners?
- chipotle_coyote 12y ago
  While this is another 'Well, works for me" kind of response, I've never had a problem printing from a laptop with OS X. Windows, yes. But OS X generally just finds the printer and goes, with no configuration necessary at all. Aren't most Linux distributions still using CUPS, the system OS X uses under the hood? (More on topic for the actual post here, the last couple of times I've tried to install Linux on a laptop getting wifi going has been a bit finicky, but usually so has getting things like booting into a GUI. I've attributed that less to Linux than to me trying to stick it on obsolete Apple hardware, though.)
  - sandGorgon 12y ago
    As I mentioned, it has less to do with the underlying technology than the effort it takes to tie them together. Setting up HP WiFi printers is not seamless. In know how to do it (using hp-plugin), but things could have been packaged to work seamlessly.
  - hornetblack 12y ago
    I was just printing on someone else's computer running barebones Lubuntu. I found that going to localhost:631 (cups web admin) has all the settings needed to add the printer, which came up as "Detected network printers". I think the OSX one has a GUI frontend for that. I just tested the GNOME gui on my laptop, it doesn't seem to detect the printer but localhost:631 does.
- freehunter 12y ago
  My Lexmark X4850 begs to differ. No drivers, doesn't work, period. Lexmark doesn't care, and apparently no Linux driver developers have this printer, so no one has made support for it yet.
ZeroGravitas 12y ago
There are no royalties for Flash. Well, apart from the yearly cap that Adobe pays. Similarly, Fluendo have been paying the cap for MP3 decoding since 2005 on their open source decoder for Linux. (MP3 decode should now be out of patent, as should most encode tasks but "intellectual property" likes to keep its boundary lines as vague as possible so you never know if you're trespassing and just pay out of fear/habit.) Printing has also been pretty good for a while, so much so that Apple adopted the same solution in 2002. Are you sure your complaints are still valid?
- sandGorgon 12y ago
  I have only used Linux for the last 12 years. I use a thinkpad in an office full of macs and HP printers and 5ghz networks. None of it works as seamlessly as on a Mac. I'm pretty comfortable compiling my custom kernels, so I'm more than the average Joe trying to setup networking. There is still a reason why every Linux install asks you to explicitly select that you want mp3 codecs insralled. Flash is not installed by default. I don't know what the legal reasons are, but I'm willing to pay my share to not having to deal with it.
  - jdjb 12y ago
    "There is still a reason why every Linux install asks you to explicitly select that you want mp3 codecs insralled." Ubuntu is the only installer I know of that does this...
    - joelg236 12y ago
      Mint does to, IIRC.
      - ChrisSlx 12y ago
        They use the same (or an extremely similar) installer last I checked.
pwnna 12y ago
Why is copy-paste broken? I never had issues. I don't have issues anymore with printing and networking. I understand that this stuff is per vendor so I usually do my research before buying (I have thinkpads, and my printers are all pretty friendly). I do see many windows computer fall over when printers connect to new wireless networks, though. As for mp3, flash, isn't is as simple as enabling a non-free repository and let it do its thing? If you use Ubuntu the option to enable that is right at the installer. I've never had the issue since I switched to Linux full time (11.04)
- clarry 12y ago
  > Why is copy-paste broken? I never had issues. Different programs use different conventions. For example, shift+insert does not do the same thing in say, xterm and firefox.
  - zorbo 12y ago
    Interesting. I only noticed now that shift-insert in Firefox doesn't use PRIMARY but CLIPBOARD. I'm so used to middle mouse button paste that I never noticed. This is probably due to Firefox not using a native graphical toolkit.
    - krakensden 12y ago
      Don't they use Gtk2 & Cairo?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - kzrdude 12y ago
    Chromium is slow to deliver the clipboard too (just containing text), so you press ctrl+v and wait for several seconds. Chromium and some others take the clipboard with them when the app is Quit, suddenly the clipboad is cleared.
    - pwnna 12y ago
zorbo 12y ago
> Copy paste Out of curiosity, what do you feel is bad about copy-pasting under linux? It's inconsistent, but it's still the best copy-paste functionality I've experienced so far on any operating system. It'd be nice if all applications understood the dual clipboard, and if terminal applications behaved a bit better, but still.. by far the best of any OS as far as I'm concerned.
- sandGorgon 12y ago
  Inconsistency - again this is not about Ctrl c but rather some (any) consistency. I truly envy the OSX guys, their consistency P.S. google for IBM CUA . Linux is supposed to follow it, but doesn't. Macvim is more consistent than gvim !
  - orbifold 12y ago
    Every time I use OSX or Windows I catch myself marking a portion of text and trying to paste with middle mouse button.
    - sandGorgon 12y ago
      good point. Except... all new laptops are coming without a middle mouse button. This is the trend in all the latest Thinkpads as well a lot of other computers (I know of Asus and Acer as well).
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Concerning networkd, I don't think so. It's mostly geared towards (and I believe even originating from) CoreOS, and environments similar to it. Mostly for managing network devices in containers and virtualized deployments. Red Hat's been sponsoring Project Atomic recently.
Istof 12y ago
If you don't feel like doing the research to make sure that your hardware will work correctly under Linux, you can buy a computer with Linux pre-installed.
- clebio 12y ago
  Which is to say, you know, the one Dell laptop and the System76 behemoths. So, yeah, two options out of ... thousands. And, research or not, _no_ hardware really, fully supports linux (or, vice-versa). Which is sort of the point of this whole thread.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    Zareason is the bees knees: http://zareason.com/shop/UltraLap-440.html http://zareason.com/shop/UltraLap-440.html They'll ship with the distro of your choice preinstalled, and I've had wonderful experience with their support (where they suggested a kernel upgrade for me a few versions higher than what was shipping with my preferred distro.) Every model except the UltraLap comes with a mini-screwdriver and encouragement to use it. The UltraLap is their competition with 'ultrabooks' though, so it's not put together as nicely as the others - no screwdriver there:( They just test everything, and only send you stuff that works.
    - clebio 12y ago
      Awesome, did not know about them. Thanks!
  - steanne 12y ago
    there's a bunch of sources nowadays. http://linuxpreloaded.com/ http://linuxpreloaded.com/
zvrba 12y ago
> Copy paste, printing and networking. Biggest usability misses of Linux. Hah. 5 years ago I switched my desktop from Linux to Windows because copy-paste suddenly stopped working. Suddenly it became impossible to copy an URL link from the terminal into FF's address bar. Then I said to myself I didn't have time for this s*t. I've never looked back after switching.
driverdan 12y ago
You completely forgot the many GPU issues that still exist.

scrollaway 12y ago

Sound isn't too great either. The BlueZ developers for example decided to drop HSF/HSP support in BlueZ 5.x [1], which means there is no way to get a bluetooth headset (with a microphone) working on Linux anymore; there's just no way. Although it's not like sound is great on Windows either. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/5.0/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/5....

Someone1234 12y ago
> Although it's not like sound is great on Windows either. Pre-Vista I might have agreed with you but now? I think Windows has quite good audio stack. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Windows_Vista#Audio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_features_new_to_Wind...
- danielweber 12y ago
  Vista was the first time I suddenly found myself unable to use my headphones on a Windows machine. Sounds was forced to go out through the speakers. I eventually rebooted to fix it. I feel things are moving backwards.
  - izacus 12y ago
    Your single anectodal evidence of single non-updated driver does not really prove anything about "going backwards" or tell anything about the merit of new audio stack.
atomicfiredoll 12y ago
I'm just here (on my laptop with speakers that have mysteriously stopped working) to second any comments relating to the sorry state of Linux audio.
- taylorbuley 12y ago
  It's a good thing my brightness settings are stuck at 100% or I wouldn't be able to upvote this comment.
  - oftenwrong 12y ago
    Does xbacklight work?
    - aeroevan 12y ago
      My macbook pro (running linux) has a strange issue where I have to run setpci -v -H1 -s 00:01.00 BRIDGE_CONTROL=0 before the backlight works (when using official NVIDIA drivers, nouveau works fine). My T410 thinkpad required some XOrg.conf setting get the backlight working. It really is strange how bad the NVIDIA drivers are with this backlight stuff.
krakensden 12y ago
Apparently the BlueZ team only works on Android now, even though it's no longer shipped with AOSP (or even any phones?)
- andor 12y ago
  The reason appears to be that Intel wants Android to work well on their hardware, and the new BlueDroid stack doesn't support any Intel-specific features. Instead of fixing the sketchy (details in article) BlueDroid code, they decided to make BlueZ a drop-in replacement for BlueDroid: http://lwn.net/Articles/597293/ http://lwn.net/Articles/597293/
sgnelson 12y ago
The irony of this to me is that I started using Linux back in 1998 or so (though I've used it off and on for the past 15 years, I'm far from an expert, just a hobbyist) But in 1998, Sound on Linux was almost impossible to get working correctly (that's hyperbole, but it wasn't too far off) It's gotten better, but not by much. But considering 15 years have gone by, that's faint praise indeed.

krakensden 12y ago

I haven't had trouble with printing in years- in fact, I can basically print on everything with no configuration, and people with OS X and Windows laptops seem to have lots of problems.

sciurus 12y ago
Used many wireless printers or scanners?
chipotle_coyote 12y ago
While this is another 'Well, works for me" kind of response, I've never had a problem printing from a laptop with OS X. Windows, yes. But OS X generally just finds the printer and goes, with no configuration necessary at all. Aren't most Linux distributions still using CUPS, the system OS X uses under the hood? (More on topic for the actual post here, the last couple of times I've tried to install Linux on a laptop getting wifi going has been a bit finicky, but usually so has getting things like booting into a GUI. I've attributed that less to Linux than to me trying to stick it on obsolete Apple hardware, though.)
- sandGorgon 12y ago
  As I mentioned, it has less to do with the underlying technology than the effort it takes to tie them together. Setting up HP WiFi printers is not seamless. In know how to do it (using hp-plugin), but things could have been packaged to work seamlessly.
- hornetblack 12y ago
  I was just printing on someone else's computer running barebones Lubuntu. I found that going to localhost:631 (cups web admin) has all the settings needed to add the printer, which came up as "Detected network printers". I think the OSX one has a GUI frontend for that. I just tested the GNOME gui on my laptop, it doesn't seem to detect the printer but localhost:631 does.
freehunter 12y ago
My Lexmark X4850 begs to differ. No drivers, doesn't work, period. Lexmark doesn't care, and apparently no Linux driver developers have this printer, so no one has made support for it yet.

ZeroGravitas 12y ago

There are no royalties for Flash. Well, apart from the yearly cap that Adobe pays. Similarly, Fluendo have been paying the cap for MP3 decoding since 2005 on their open source decoder for Linux. (MP3 decode should now be out of patent, as should most encode tasks but "intellectual property" likes to keep its boundary lines as vague as possible so you never know if you're trespassing and just pay out of fear/habit.) Printing has also been pretty good for a while, so much so that Apple adopted the same solution in 2002. Are you sure your complaints are still valid?

sandGorgon 12y ago
I have only used Linux for the last 12 years. I use a thinkpad in an office full of macs and HP printers and 5ghz networks. None of it works as seamlessly as on a Mac. I'm pretty comfortable compiling my custom kernels, so I'm more than the average Joe trying to setup networking. There is still a reason why every Linux install asks you to explicitly select that you want mp3 codecs insralled. Flash is not installed by default. I don't know what the legal reasons are, but I'm willing to pay my share to not having to deal with it.
- jdjb 12y ago
  "There is still a reason why every Linux install asks you to explicitly select that you want mp3 codecs insralled." Ubuntu is the only installer I know of that does this...
  - joelg236 12y ago
    Mint does to, IIRC.
    - ChrisSlx 12y ago
      They use the same (or an extremely similar) installer last I checked.

pwnna 12y ago

Why is copy-paste broken? I never had issues. I don't have issues anymore with printing and networking. I understand that this stuff is per vendor so I usually do my research before buying (I have thinkpads, and my printers are all pretty friendly). I do see many windows computer fall over when printers connect to new wireless networks, though. As for mp3, flash, isn't is as simple as enabling a non-free repository and let it do its thing? If you use Ubuntu the option to enable that is right at the installer. I've never had the issue since I switched to Linux full time (11.04)

clarry 12y ago
> Why is copy-paste broken? I never had issues. Different programs use different conventions. For example, shift+insert does not do the same thing in say, xterm and firefox.
- zorbo 12y ago
  Interesting. I only noticed now that shift-insert in Firefox doesn't use PRIMARY but CLIPBOARD. I'm so used to middle mouse button paste that I never noticed. This is probably due to Firefox not using a native graphical toolkit.
  - krakensden 12y ago
    Don't they use Gtk2 & Cairo?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- kzrdude 12y ago
  Chromium is slow to deliver the clipboard too (just containing text), so you press ctrl+v and wait for several seconds. Chromium and some others take the clipboard with them when the app is Quit, suddenly the clipboad is cleared.
  - pwnna 12y ago

zorbo 12y ago

> Copy paste Out of curiosity, what do you feel is bad about copy-pasting under linux? It's inconsistent, but it's still the best copy-paste functionality I've experienced so far on any operating system. It'd be nice if all applications understood the dual clipboard, and if terminal applications behaved a bit better, but still.. by far the best of any OS as far as I'm concerned.

sandGorgon 12y ago
Inconsistency - again this is not about Ctrl c but rather some (any) consistency. I truly envy the OSX guys, their consistency P.S. google for IBM CUA . Linux is supposed to follow it, but doesn't. Macvim is more consistent than gvim !
- orbifold 12y ago
  Every time I use OSX or Windows I catch myself marking a portion of text and trying to paste with middle mouse button.
  - sandGorgon 12y ago
    good point. Except... all new laptops are coming without a middle mouse button. This is the trend in all the latest Thinkpads as well a lot of other computers (I know of Asus and Acer as well).

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

Concerning networkd, I don't think so. It's mostly geared towards (and I believe even originating from) CoreOS, and environments similar to it. Mostly for managing network devices in containers and virtualized deployments. Red Hat's been sponsoring Project Atomic recently.

Istof 12y ago

If you don't feel like doing the research to make sure that your hardware will work correctly under Linux, you can buy a computer with Linux pre-installed.

clebio 12y ago
Which is to say, you know, the one Dell laptop and the System76 behemoths. So, yeah, two options out of ... thousands. And, research or not, _no_ hardware really, fully supports linux (or, vice-versa). Which is sort of the point of this whole thread.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  Zareason is the bees knees: http://zareason.com/shop/UltraLap-440.html http://zareason.com/shop/UltraLap-440.html They'll ship with the distro of your choice preinstalled, and I've had wonderful experience with their support (where they suggested a kernel upgrade for me a few versions higher than what was shipping with my preferred distro.) Every model except the UltraLap comes with a mini-screwdriver and encouragement to use it. The UltraLap is their competition with 'ultrabooks' though, so it's not put together as nicely as the others - no screwdriver there:( They just test everything, and only send you stuff that works.
  - clebio 12y ago
    Awesome, did not know about them. Thanks!
- steanne 12y ago
  there's a bunch of sources nowadays. http://linuxpreloaded.com/ http://linuxpreloaded.com/

zvrba 12y ago

> Copy paste, printing and networking. Biggest usability misses of Linux. Hah. 5 years ago I switched my desktop from Linux to Windows because copy-paste suddenly stopped working. Suddenly it became impossible to copy an URL link from the terminal into FF's address bar. Then I said to myself I didn't have time for this s*t. I've never looked back after switching.

driverdan 12y ago

You completely forgot the many GPU issues that still exist.