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> Version control, build systems, compilated makefiles, testing frameworks, profiler sessions, deployment scripts - all that takes time to set up, but pays hand

by exDM69 12y ago

> Version control, build systems, compilated makefiles, testing frameworks, profiler sessions, deployment scripts - all that takes time to set up, but pays handsomely on all projects of non-trivial size and length. Part of what the OP was trying to say is that these tools sure are valuable and necessary in all non-trivial projects, but you can't get away without them even if the task at hand is trivial. Like the simple mobile app that the OP was talking about. Once a project grows too big to be one or two source files, you're going to have to invest time to set up version control, build systems, testing, deployment, etc. It's like you'd have to take the jumbo jet to go to the grocery store and not being allowed to ride a bike. I recently went through bootstrapping a project like this, I had been working in a single C file in Vim (:setlocal makeprg=gcc\ -o\ %:p:r\ %:p $CFLAGS) which was rather nice and I was very productive initially (and enjoying myself). Now I've spent about 5 working days setting up builds and automated testing, test coverage, profiling, continuous integration, etc and I'm still not done. That's 5 days worth of time not going to solving a problem.

PaulHoule 12y ago
That's a big reason why I developed the centipede framework https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede It handles all the BS that it takes to do Java projects so you can start a new project with all the boring stuff taken care of for you in 1 minute.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  But by the author's logic now I have to learn your new tool! And it's on Github...the horror.
tdumitrescu 12y ago
It's your personal project; no one's forcing you to use version control, a non-standard build system, etc. Many of us spent many years/decades coding without, and personally I never never never want to go back to working that way. It's the standard tradeoff of automation: some extra time up front learning and setting up some workflow tools (download them, write your own scripts, whatever) ends up saving you from an absurd amount of repetitive, error-prone manual activity.
- exDM69 12y ago
  > It's your personal project; no one's forcing you to use version control, a non-standard build system, etc This is simply not the case any more. If we go back to the example in the OP - a trivial mobile application - even if the code would fit in one simple file and would take no longer than a few hours to write, doing all the mundane setup work would still be there. You can't build an Android or an iOS app without using the toolchains the platforms provide. You're going to have to write XML manifests and build scripts and whatnot (and/or learn the respective preferred IDEs for both of them). The same applies for any practical sized application, no matter how simple. > personally I never never never want to go back to working that way. Me neither, I just wish the overhead of setting all this up would be less. Now the best thing we have are language-specific tools and conventions, no universal established best practices exist. This is also why "Java shops" hire "Java Programmers" and not C# programmers. A proficient programmer in either should be up-to-speed on the other in no time if it weren't for all the new tools that have to be learned.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    > Now the best thing we have are language-specific tools and conventions Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. I've been learning Ruby toolchains to code Erlang in a company, seen C++ code for robots running AVR being compiled and deployed by a Scala build tool, and webdev is a total mess; every other library uses weird tools written in unrelated languages.
  - pekk 12y ago
    > You can't build an Android or an iOS app without using the toolchains the platforms provide. That's because of the way Android and iOS were designed. The amount of crap around coding is not a constant, it's very easy to inflate it with things like XML manifests and IDEs.

by exDM69 12y ago

PaulHoule 12y ago

That's a big reason why I developed the centipede framework https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede It handles all the BS that it takes to do Java projects so you can start a new project with all the boring stuff taken care of for you in 1 minute.

optimusclimb 12y ago
But by the author's logic now I have to learn your new tool! And it's on Github...the horror.

tdumitrescu 12y ago

It's your personal project; no one's forcing you to use version control, a non-standard build system, etc. Many of us spent many years/decades coding without, and personally I never never never want to go back to working that way. It's the standard tradeoff of automation: some extra time up front learning and setting up some workflow tools (download them, write your own scripts, whatever) ends up saving you from an absurd amount of repetitive, error-prone manual activity.

exDM69 12y ago
> It's your personal project; no one's forcing you to use version control, a non-standard build system, etc This is simply not the case any more. If we go back to the example in the OP - a trivial mobile application - even if the code would fit in one simple file and would take no longer than a few hours to write, doing all the mundane setup work would still be there. You can't build an Android or an iOS app without using the toolchains the platforms provide. You're going to have to write XML manifests and build scripts and whatnot (and/or learn the respective preferred IDEs for both of them). The same applies for any practical sized application, no matter how simple. > personally I never never never want to go back to working that way. Me neither, I just wish the overhead of setting all this up would be less. Now the best thing we have are language-specific tools and conventions, no universal established best practices exist. This is also why "Java shops" hire "Java Programmers" and not C# programmers. A proficient programmer in either should be up-to-speed on the other in no time if it weren't for all the new tools that have to be learned.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > Now the best thing we have are language-specific tools and conventions Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. I've been learning Ruby toolchains to code Erlang in a company, seen C++ code for robots running AVR being compiled and deployed by a Scala build tool, and webdev is a total mess; every other library uses weird tools written in unrelated languages.
- pekk 12y ago
  > You can't build an Android or an iOS app without using the toolchains the platforms provide. That's because of the way Android and iOS were designed. The amount of crap around coding is not a constant, it's very easy to inflate it with things like XML manifests and IDEs.