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I've been working on combating this problem for a few years now. I'm working on a game called Spire (http://hitboxteam.tumblr.com/ http://hitboxteam.tumblr.com

I've been working on combating this problem for a few years now. I'm working on a game called Spire (http://hitboxteam.tumblr.com/ http://hitboxteam.tumblr.com/), which is a mix of Quake and Roguelikes. Every procedural dungeon creator I've seen so far seems to just use pre-made rooms or chunks of rooms, and shuffles them around. It never feels like you're in a new world each time, it just feels like you're in the same world jumbled up. For the past few years, I've been working on an alternate system, which is to use a goal-oriented design based around the player experience. Each element in the world is placed purposefully, instead of randomly. I do this by emulating the traditional level design process. I think about every action and intention that goes in creating a level manually, and reduce it to rules for my system. The goal is that the end result feels crafted to guide the player through an experience, rather than to rely on the player to create a experience for themselves. Examples of the generation behavior: - Lights are placed in areas to guide the players attention towards the primary path, or treasures and dangers. - Geometric features are generated based on spatial aesthetic rules (eg. a pleasing amount of symmetry and repetition), as well as gameplay rules (eg. jump distances based on player capabilities, corridor widths based on desired feeling of claustrophobia and combat difficulty). - Unique color palette for each seed. - Parameters of room construction have emotional analogues (high density -> claustrophobia; harsh angles -> tension; high symmetry -> order; sweeping vistas -> a moment to take a break; gradually lowering elevation -> an unsettling descent). - The curve of emotional parameters over time have varying mathematical relationships to other parameters' curves, so every seed feels like there is a unique consistency to it.

taurath 12y ago
The "emotional analogues" sound actually very interesting. I wonder how well that will hold up in practice - it seems like if it were possible to generate a compelling story from variables we'd be able to do it by now - we would be able to consistently put out compelling stories in book form at the very least. Its frequently not the structure or even the overall plot that's the point, but the little details that matter. I've heard it said of movies that the point is not what happens, but how it happens (probably a paraphrase of Roger Ebert). It feels like we're a very long way off from having any machine generate that.
- lifeformed 12y ago
  It's certainly an experimental method, so I'm not quite sure how it'll turn out (but it's getting there). I agree about the details - although of course it's important to have a proper structure to the world and narrative, as it gives context to the details. My aim to build a thematic structure, and then to bring it alive through the details. Things like light placement, color, room shape, prop placement, and the overall mood of each section should all work to build an interesting world. We even have generators that make tiny little stories out of the props - a campfire might have candles and tomes next to it (signs of a ritual), or maybe utensils and dishes (signs of a traveler's meal). Not to mention, the actual gameplay of movement and combat is intended to be its own world of intricacy (the other guys are working on that). I'm not aiming to explicitly generate narratives of characters and dialogue and words. Rather, the system generates the feeling of narratives. Rising action, conflicts, an interesting flow of emotions, pacing the intensity, etc. The player can fill in the details themselves, as they (not their character) are the protagonist, exploring the world and going on a journey of discovery and mastery. My thinking is that what it lacks in human touch, it makes up for in mystery. Knowing that it's a unique world that no human has ever set foot upon before is genuinely exciting, and gives a real desire to explore. It's like that feeling you got the first time you played Minecraft, and found some amazing outdoor environments and knew your eyes were the first to see it - but then as you played over and over you saw the patterns and it lost the magic. My goal is to capture the first feeling, and to hide the second effect with not patterns but processes, generating things based on a thematic goal in mind.
- Retric 12y ago
  Good video games cover the little details through gameplay. The secret seems to be a mix of a meaningful possibility of failure with 'fair' gameplay. Basicly, I did something stupid, so something happened, which I responded to by doing X which worked or almost worked but failed. Think dangerous enemies with vary low HP. Or useful but not nessisary NPC's that can die.
dsuth 12y ago
> It never feels like you're in a new world each time, it just feels like you're in the same world jumbled up. This was always the feeling I got from games like Daggerfall / Arena Scrolls, which procedurally generate dungeons. Sure, it's technically a different dungeon each time, but in reality it's just the same set of blocks in a different order. Even the mob spawning was based on the block type, so there were few surprises by the end. Genuine procedurally generated architecture sounds like an awesome challenge - good luck!
Flenser 12y ago
Sounds a lot like the AI director in left 4 dead: http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of...
- lifeformed 12y ago
  Yup, there's a lot of inspiration from that, except the big difference is that this system isn't dynamic. In L4D, the flow would change based on your performance. We want our system to be fully set up from the start, since we're designing it to also be a competitive speedrunning game and need reproducible challenges for everyone.
tripzilch 12y ago
In case you don't know it yet, you should probably also really check out the blog I linked in my other post. http://www.gamesbyangelina.org/2013/05/the-saturday-paper-dungeon-feng-shui/ http://www.gamesbyangelina.org/2013/05/the-saturday-paper-du...

taurath 12y ago

The "emotional analogues" sound actually very interesting. I wonder how well that will hold up in practice - it seems like if it were possible to generate a compelling story from variables we'd be able to do it by now - we would be able to consistently put out compelling stories in book form at the very least. Its frequently not the structure or even the overall plot that's the point, but the little details that matter. I've heard it said of movies that the point is not what happens, but how it happens (probably a paraphrase of Roger Ebert). It feels like we're a very long way off from having any machine generate that.

lifeformed 12y ago
It's certainly an experimental method, so I'm not quite sure how it'll turn out (but it's getting there). I agree about the details - although of course it's important to have a proper structure to the world and narrative, as it gives context to the details. My aim to build a thematic structure, and then to bring it alive through the details. Things like light placement, color, room shape, prop placement, and the overall mood of each section should all work to build an interesting world. We even have generators that make tiny little stories out of the props - a campfire might have candles and tomes next to it (signs of a ritual), or maybe utensils and dishes (signs of a traveler's meal). Not to mention, the actual gameplay of movement and combat is intended to be its own world of intricacy (the other guys are working on that). I'm not aiming to explicitly generate narratives of characters and dialogue and words. Rather, the system generates the feeling of narratives. Rising action, conflicts, an interesting flow of emotions, pacing the intensity, etc. The player can fill in the details themselves, as they (not their character) are the protagonist, exploring the world and going on a journey of discovery and mastery. My thinking is that what it lacks in human touch, it makes up for in mystery. Knowing that it's a unique world that no human has ever set foot upon before is genuinely exciting, and gives a real desire to explore. It's like that feeling you got the first time you played Minecraft, and found some amazing outdoor environments and knew your eyes were the first to see it - but then as you played over and over you saw the patterns and it lost the magic. My goal is to capture the first feeling, and to hide the second effect with not patterns but processes, generating things based on a thematic goal in mind.
Retric 12y ago
Good video games cover the little details through gameplay. The secret seems to be a mix of a meaningful possibility of failure with 'fair' gameplay. Basicly, I did something stupid, so something happened, which I responded to by doing X which worked or almost worked but failed. Think dangerous enemies with vary low HP. Or useful but not nessisary NPC's that can die.

dsuth 12y ago

> It never feels like you're in a new world each time, it just feels like you're in the same world jumbled up. This was always the feeling I got from games like Daggerfall / Arena Scrolls, which procedurally generate dungeons. Sure, it's technically a different dungeon each time, but in reality it's just the same set of blocks in a different order. Even the mob spawning was based on the block type, so there were few surprises by the end. Genuine procedurally generated architecture sounds like an awesome challenge - good luck!

Flenser 12y ago

Sounds a lot like the AI director in left 4 dead: http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of...

lifeformed 12y ago
Yup, there's a lot of inspiration from that, except the big difference is that this system isn't dynamic. In L4D, the flow would change based on your performance. We want our system to be fully set up from the start, since we're designing it to also be a competitive speedrunning game and need reproducible challenges for everyone.

tripzilch 12y ago

In case you don't know it yet, you should probably also really check out the blog I linked in my other post. http://www.gamesbyangelina.org/2013/05/the-saturday-paper-dungeon-feng-shui/ http://www.gamesbyangelina.org/2013/05/the-saturday-paper-du...