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Even though I am an advocate of procedural generation, I concur that this is a problem with procedural generation. Even though one algorithm can create million

Even though I am an advocate of procedural generation, I concur that this is a problem with procedural generation. Even though one algorithm can create millions of permutations, they are all based on the same algorithm (for example, you can vary the size and distance of Worley noise in many ways, but in the end it looks like variations on the same type of noise). For each really new thing you want to produce, you basically have to create a new algorithm to produce it. You can often combine algorithms (say, combining simplex noise with worley noise to produce rocky terrain), but there are only so many interesting ways you can do this, and so many ways you can do it that won't break your game. You can't go wild adjusting the parameters, because 99 percent of the results will look like junk, so you often have to restrict yourself to meaningful subsets of the parameters. Really, it gets pretty close to manual generation at some point, because there is so much human input. Even if you were creating creatures, simply varying the amount of limbs would only produce so many interesting results. Then you have to code separate algorithms to generate eyes, horns, claws, skins, fur, etc -- and then make sure that every generated permutation looks ok. Edit: to add an additional distinction, I am referring to the generation of visual content here. You can do much more in an emergent (AI-driven, state-based, or chaotic) system and produce surprising results, although you still fall into the dilemma of making sure that all resulting permutations look/function correctly.

filearts 12y ago
If the procedural system were only used as inputs for the initial state and the world were based on a chaotic model then the the starting game state (after some iterations of the world model) could be wildly different for very similar sets of input states. As you mention, the challenge then becomes to define this sort of chaotic system in such a way that the resulting worlds are not 'nonsense'. Nonsense states could be culled using some fitness functions... sounds like fun :-)
- gavanwoolery 12y ago
  Yes, in my mind there are at least two levels of procedural generation: 1) Generating the layout of the world, placement of entities, and other world states (such as available quests or plot devices). 2) The generation of the actual content itself (NPCs, items, terrain, flora, fauna, etc). Here, I'm mostly referring to the second type. :) As far as the first type, there is a LOT more you can do with chaotic systems because they are often AI-driven, and AI-driven things can (potentially) have emergent results (although even an AI-less system, like Conway's game of life, can produce many interesting results).
jmpeax 12y ago
> Even if you were creating creatures, simply varying the amount of limbs would only produce so many interesting results. That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw the gazelles, the diplodocus, and that oversized rhinoceros plowing through the purple forest. This is meant to be a one of infinite worlds to explore, and it's just Earth with a few tweaks.

filearts 12y ago

If the procedural system were only used as inputs for the initial state and the world were based on a chaotic model then the the starting game state (after some iterations of the world model) could be wildly different for very similar sets of input states. As you mention, the challenge then becomes to define this sort of chaotic system in such a way that the resulting worlds are not 'nonsense'. Nonsense states could be culled using some fitness functions... sounds like fun :-)

gavanwoolery 12y ago
Yes, in my mind there are at least two levels of procedural generation: 1) Generating the layout of the world, placement of entities, and other world states (such as available quests or plot devices). 2) The generation of the actual content itself (NPCs, items, terrain, flora, fauna, etc). Here, I'm mostly referring to the second type. :) As far as the first type, there is a LOT more you can do with chaotic systems because they are often AI-driven, and AI-driven things can (potentially) have emergent results (although even an AI-less system, like Conway's game of life, can produce many interesting results).

jmpeax 12y ago

> Even if you were creating creatures, simply varying the amount of limbs would only produce so many interesting results. That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw the gazelles, the diplodocus, and that oversized rhinoceros plowing through the purple forest. This is meant to be a one of infinite worlds to explore, and it's just Earth with a few tweaks.