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Am I wrong that this would have been the top upvoted comment on HN 5 years ago? If so maybe that counts as a tiny bit of progress/small strides. Or maybe this

by Steko 12y ago

Am I wrong that this would have been the top upvoted comment on HN 5 years ago? If so maybe that counts as a tiny bit of progress/small strides. Or maybe this will be the top voted when I come back later, /sigh...

Zikes 12y ago
If you disagree with any of the points I've made, I'm all ears. I did not make that comment in some lame attempt to troll or stir up controversy. I have presented my case against using the harassment of women in gaming as an excuse to target and harass the male demographic, and I'm willing to discuss it further with anyone that's interested.
- sp332 12y ago
  As a male, I didn't feel targeted by the article. I don't think the article was anti-men, it was just pro-women which is not the same thing. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of harassment I could get as a result of the article.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    > I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion. > A male friend of mine that develops AAA games told me, "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly. I’m trying to get better about it." I don’t think his is a unique experience. > We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out. I don't know how anyone, male or female, could read that excerpt and not be offended. First, it starts out by basically asserting the premise that men do not get rape threats. Second, it quotes one man as saying he reacts viscerally to criticisms from women and then asserts that this is typical behavior for men. Third, it says society is sexist in ways it doesn't understand, asserts men are extremely sensitive to criticism from women, and then calls them primal and invokes male privilege. This is hashtag feminism as its worst. It's building flimsy pretexts on top of anecdotal evidence, and hiding it in an article about harassment women face in an attempt to lend it some sort of legitimacy. It's as bad as the "think of the children!" excuses used to pass laws, and just as insidious because it is automatically above reproach in exactly the same way. It's clearly demonstrated right here in the way any comment at all that disagrees with the author is immediately set upon with downvotes, rather than reasonable discourse.
    - sp332 12y ago
      OK, actually, I agree with some of this. I didn't think labeling that behavior as "primal" was accurate or helpful. It's certainly social, and bound to be more or less strong depending on the person and situation. Calling it primal is defeatist, plus it assumes that men have to fight against their base nature to be decent people. On the other hand, I don't think the article says men don't get rape threats, just that they're rare. Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is.
      - Zikes 12y ago
        > Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is. Oh I absolutely agree with you there. This article is largely sexist against men, but few people are willing to admit it because it's buried in a legitimate rant about sexism against women.
        ahris 12y ago
        This writer has had negative experiences in the game industry due to her gender and is hoping to change that. She is not placing blame on all males. She is merely relating her personal experience where there happens to be a correlation between the negativity and males. Maybe you're reading the tone incorrectly. Her writing is pretty abrasive.
        Zikes 12y ago
        I don't think you've read any of the previous comments in this thread. If you'll go back up to this[1] comment you'll see that "tone" has as much to do with this argument as the brand of laptop she used to write the article in the first place. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070340
- Steko 12y ago
  If you were all ears you might have digested TFA instead of spinning it as men being the real victims.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    I'm not refuting that women are harassed, I'm taking offense at it being used as an excuse to disparage the male gender. That is no spin, that is calling out unacceptable behavior. Please read the thread located here for more details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070237
mperd 12y ago
I haven't been reading HN for that long, but I'm rather impressed that this thread didn't get that much similar comments. I think it shows community maturity and also that these subjects are getting through in the IT crowd.
- Zikes 12y ago
  You're impressed there weren't more comments like mine? Can I ask what it is about my comment that you did not like?
  - mperd 12y ago
    Your comments in this thread are about dismissing the message of the article, by reversing the roles (you talk about men being "harassed" by this article), by using rhetoric analysis (which looks to me like an excuse to share two links that have nothing to do with the article). Sure, anyone can pick flaws in an article, especially in a piece of opinion like this one. One could go on and on about how this is biased, how that is a fallacy, how this is a red herring. That's usually the vast majority of comments you'd get on articles about women condition in our society/our communities. Thing is, this is not a mathematical demonstration or a scientific call for review. What I didn't like about your comment is that you don't show the faintest sign of empathy towards what women in the video game industry might endure, and that you actually put a fair amount of energy dismissing what I see as a call for reflection, or help. What I like about the other comments in this thread is the "shit, I never knew that was broken, thanks for the article, what could we do to fix it?" mentality that I generally see in HN threads about technology, hacking, health, etc.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      I have not once in my comments on this thread said that women do not face harassment, which is the stated message of the article. What I have done, is point out the many, many ways in which that message has been used as a front to put forth sexist and propagandist messages intended to disparage men. Those two links directly follow my statement calling out the unacceptable assertions the article's author put forth that men are primarily at fault and cannot sympathize or understand the author's position. I will not give any message wrapped in that sort of hate speech the time of day, and I certainly will not thank them for it.

by Steko 12y ago

Zikes 12y ago

If you disagree with any of the points I've made, I'm all ears. I did not make that comment in some lame attempt to troll or stir up controversy. I have presented my case against using the harassment of women in gaming as an excuse to target and harass the male demographic, and I'm willing to discuss it further with anyone that's interested.

sp332 12y ago
As a male, I didn't feel targeted by the article. I don't think the article was anti-men, it was just pro-women which is not the same thing. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of harassment I could get as a result of the article.
- Zikes 12y ago
  > I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion. > A male friend of mine that develops AAA games told me, "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly. I’m trying to get better about it." I don’t think his is a unique experience. > We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out. I don't know how anyone, male or female, could read that excerpt and not be offended. First, it starts out by basically asserting the premise that men do not get rape threats. Second, it quotes one man as saying he reacts viscerally to criticisms from women and then asserts that this is typical behavior for men. Third, it says society is sexist in ways it doesn't understand, asserts men are extremely sensitive to criticism from women, and then calls them primal and invokes male privilege. This is hashtag feminism as its worst. It's building flimsy pretexts on top of anecdotal evidence, and hiding it in an article about harassment women face in an attempt to lend it some sort of legitimacy. It's as bad as the "think of the children!" excuses used to pass laws, and just as insidious because it is automatically above reproach in exactly the same way. It's clearly demonstrated right here in the way any comment at all that disagrees with the author is immediately set upon with downvotes, rather than reasonable discourse.
  - sp332 12y ago
    OK, actually, I agree with some of this. I didn't think labeling that behavior as "primal" was accurate or helpful. It's certainly social, and bound to be more or less strong depending on the person and situation. Calling it primal is defeatist, plus it assumes that men have to fight against their base nature to be decent people. On the other hand, I don't think the article says men don't get rape threats, just that they're rare. Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      > Also I think society really doesn't understand how sexist it is. Oh I absolutely agree with you there. This article is largely sexist against men, but few people are willing to admit it because it's buried in a legitimate rant about sexism against women.
      - ahris 12y ago
        This writer has had negative experiences in the game industry due to her gender and is hoping to change that. She is not placing blame on all males. She is merely relating her personal experience where there happens to be a correlation between the negativity and males. Maybe you're reading the tone incorrectly. Her writing is pretty abrasive.
        Zikes 12y ago
        I don't think you've read any of the previous comments in this thread. If you'll go back up to this[1] comment you'll see that "tone" has as much to do with this argument as the brand of laptop she used to write the article in the first place. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070340
Steko 12y ago
If you were all ears you might have digested TFA instead of spinning it as men being the real victims.
- Zikes 12y ago
  I'm not refuting that women are harassed, I'm taking offense at it being used as an excuse to disparage the male gender. That is no spin, that is calling out unacceptable behavior. Please read the thread located here for more details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8070237

mperd 12y ago

I haven't been reading HN for that long, but I'm rather impressed that this thread didn't get that much similar comments. I think it shows community maturity and also that these subjects are getting through in the IT crowd.

Zikes 12y ago
You're impressed there weren't more comments like mine? Can I ask what it is about my comment that you did not like?
- mperd 12y ago
  Your comments in this thread are about dismissing the message of the article, by reversing the roles (you talk about men being "harassed" by this article), by using rhetoric analysis (which looks to me like an excuse to share two links that have nothing to do with the article). Sure, anyone can pick flaws in an article, especially in a piece of opinion like this one. One could go on and on about how this is biased, how that is a fallacy, how this is a red herring. That's usually the vast majority of comments you'd get on articles about women condition in our society/our communities. Thing is, this is not a mathematical demonstration or a scientific call for review. What I didn't like about your comment is that you don't show the faintest sign of empathy towards what women in the video game industry might endure, and that you actually put a fair amount of energy dismissing what I see as a call for reflection, or help. What I like about the other comments in this thread is the "shit, I never knew that was broken, thanks for the article, what could we do to fix it?" mentality that I generally see in HN threads about technology, hacking, health, etc.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    I have not once in my comments on this thread said that women do not face harassment, which is the stated message of the article. What I have done, is point out the many, many ways in which that message has been used as a front to put forth sexist and propagandist messages intended to disparage men. Those two links directly follow my statement calling out the unacceptable assertions the article's author put forth that men are primarily at fault and cannot sympathize or understand the author's position. I will not give any message wrapped in that sort of hate speech the time of day, and I certainly will not thank them for it.