5 ms·

The Anatomy of Determination

164 points by revorad 17y ago

davidw 17y ago
> I can't think of any field in which determination is overrated Getting into land wars with Russia with winter approaching.
- sharpn 17y ago
  That's willfull. Having the discipline to wait until spring (no matter what the cost) would have been determined.
  - davidw 17y ago
    If you're "ambitious", you may be going where no one has gone before. These days, everyone knows that getting into a land war with Russia is a bad idea, but it may not have always been so. Same thing with lots of other people whose ambition caused them to push the limits (mountain climbers?). If you're at the limits, you may not know when 'determination' means pushing on despite everything to achieve some great success, and when that same pushing on will cause you to die, when turning back may have let you live to fight another day. Not sure where I'm going with this, I guess I just like to play devil's advocate a bit:-) It's a good essay, but perhaps what I don't care for in general terms is the vagueness that surrounds the whole issue. Some people are smart because they push on in the face of great opposition. Others win plaudits for "knowing when to quit" and changing direction. It's all a bit wishy washy, although I think that PG's elements for success are, in a generic way, about right. Just that that vagueness sort of precludes one from applying them to specific situations until after the fact.
    - abalashov 17y ago
      I think that PG's elements for success are, in a generic way, about right. Just that that vagueness sort of precludes one from applying them to specific situations until after the fact. That was my sentiment as well, after reading. Much of what is said is difficult to argue with on an ideological level; it's just that it's rather abstract.
    - sharpn 17y ago
      Ok, to continue your (excellent) mountain-climbing analogy, the ultimate goal is to climb the mountain and return safely. Encountering potentially fatal difficulties near the summit will result in you turning back to retry later if you are "determined" to reach the ultimate goal. If you willfully abandon the long-term goal of returning safely to achieve the "ambition" of reaching the summit, that's reckless rather than disciplined.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      Some people are smart because they push on in the face of great opposition. Others win plaudits for "knowing when to quit" and changing direction. It's all a bit wishy washy, Its not that its wishy washy, its that one of the great keys to success is knowing the difference between the two. On the one hand, if you are on the right track you probably need to be ready to persevere in the face of enormous opposition, but if you are on the wrong track, no matter how far you have gone, change directions. Telling the difference can be quite challenging though, at least in some cases.
      - billswift 17y ago
        Exactly. It's like the old question of the difference between having an open mind versus holes in the head. Both vary so much between even similar situations, that there is no way of knowing which side of the line cases fall on, unless they are extremely good or bad, except try it and see.
    - marvin 17y ago
      This contains some good points concerning development in dangerous areas: aviation, extreme sports, mountain climbing etc. In order to push the field forward, you have to do stuff where the risks are not known beforehand. So choosing to push in a given direction can cause great improvements in the entire field, or kill you. This is one of the reasons I will never try to become a world-class glider pilot.
  - nazgulnarsil 17y ago
    that's post hoc analysis of what "determination" is defined as. that makes it less useful as a metric of success.
rw 17y ago
Very true in my experience: "When you take people like this and put them together with other ambitious people, they bloom like dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious people are starved for the sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious peers, whatever their age."
- abalashov 17y ago
  I've had the opposite experience, depending on what kinds of personalities are involved. Sometimes when you put several ambitious people together, they all destructively interfere with each other with the strength they radiate, particularly if they're young and inexperienced. Ambitious people are almost always more granular and more preoccupied control freaks than people who are less ambitious. That can be a problem unless they are also diplomatic, pragmatic and wise.
  - logicalmind 17y ago
    This has been my experience as well. Their ambitions must align, at least somewhat. If ambitious person A wants to go one direction and ambitious person B wants to go another direction, it probably won't work. But being around other ambitious people at least gives you the opportunity to meet someone with ambition and goals that align with your goals.
- c3o 17y ago
  That's exactly what I feel hacker spaces do. http://hackerspaces.org http://hackerspaces.org
araneae 17y ago
Is there any hope for someone who is extremely willful but not all that disciplined? :/
- gruseom 17y ago
  Have the discipline to read the whole essay; it explicitly addresses that.
  - Andys 17y ago
    Or it may merely explain why you aren't succeeding, even though you are willful :-)
  - araneae 17y ago
    Not really. He says it's possible to become more disciplined, but there's no support for that in the text beyond just the statement. On top of that, there have been all these HN links about how the traditional ways to make oneself disciplined only serve to make the willful types less likely to do them. Nothing kills one's desire to accomplish something more than trying to force oneself to do it. All in all it's an unhelpful essay.
sharpn 17y ago
Good points well made. An interesting second-derivation of this is with co-founders. Two (or more) people who share a goal can spur each other on via internal competitiveness & a symbiotic pattern of compensating for dips in the other's discipline or willpower. For example I'm sure neither Lennon or McCartney would have achieved half of their combined output.
ankeshk 17y ago
1. Easy way to become better at controlling will power is controlling your diet. Yep - glucose increases will power. http://psr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/11/4/303 http://psr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/11/4/303 2. "Environment trumps discipline" I'd read an article that said that for most people - their income will be very close to the average income of their 5 closest friends. Create the environment - and discipline will come on its own. 3. Ambition either comes from having kickass heroes or from facing strong problems. England started becoming a super power only when King Henry read the book of King Arthur and his Knights of the round table. (King Arthur's story was a false story written by Thomas Malory - while in prison. A convict changed the fortunes of England which was until then a land of misfits and barbarians - by giving them a hero!) When there is a lack of heroes, you need strong problems to build that burning ambition. Eg: how Chandragupta and Chanakya went on to unite India 2300 years ago - because Alexander threatened their existence. Up until Alexander showed up in India - no one even dreamt of uniting India... 4. I think what is missing is luck - which can also be hacked somewhat. Book: The Luck Factor: The 4 Essential Principles: http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-Four-Essential-Principles/dp/1401359418/ http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-Four-Essential-Principles/...
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  About 1: Glucose is necessary, not sufficient. You don't have it and willpower suffers. You have in excess and you just get fat.
  - ankeshk 17y ago
    Good point. I think it would also be interesting to ask religious folks how they get willpower to fast. Fasting means lack of glucose in your body. Yet fasting is a showcase of willpower. So maybe some interesting answers may come from them...
    - wr1472 17y ago
      I am fasting at the moment from around 4am to 8pm. I was very apprehensive before I started this year as the days were longer this time round - I thought I would really struggle. However I have to say food has been the least of my worries. It is all in the mind not in the stomach. Once you know you can't do something you don't consider it as an option. I didn't have to mentally or physically prepare I just got on with it. In the two weeks of fasting I have lost weight, I end up gorging in the evenings and find that I can pretty much eat what I want and not worry about it. For the non-religious it would be a good way to lose weight and discipline yourself (just don't call it a diet). I do know though that if I break one of my fasts because I got hungry it will be very easy for me to break the next.
edawerd 17y ago
This has got to be, in my opinion, my 2nd favorite PG essay, right after the 'How Not to Die' essay. So here in sum is how determination seems to work: it consists of willfulness balanced with discipline, aimed by ambition. The essay is probably meant to help investors pick good investments. But I say that founders can use it to help pick good co-founders, as well as improve themselves. I would love to read more on things/characteristics about a person that might give evidence of a person's willfulness, discipline and ambition, or lack thereof.
xenophanes 17y ago
> A good deal of willfulness must be inborn, because it's common to see families where one sibling has much more of it than another. This is a non-sequitur. The hidden assumption seems to be that siblings in the observed families are treated exactly the same and have exactly the same environment, in every way, which is blatantly false.
- trunnell 17y ago
  Furthermore, if willfulness is purely inborn (or genetic) wouldn't siblings be more likely to exhibit similar strengths of will, since they have such similar DNA? In a family, nature and nurture are mixed together. The only way to separate the two components are with twin studies where the twins are raised separately.
- pg 17y ago
  It's also random which kids are willful. It's not simply the firstborn.
  - akd 17y ago
    It's also "random" (more like unpredictable) which kids receive what types of environments. Sometimes, Dad's favorite is the eldest son, sometimes Daddy's favorite is the youngest daughter.
jack7890 17y ago
Would be curious to know how he actually evaluates determination when analyzing startups. How can you tell?
- pg 17y ago
  It's hard; that's our biggest problem. It's straightforward to tell in a 10 minute conversation how smart someone is, but very hard to tell how determined they are. When we pick wrong it's almost always by misjudging determination.
  - 9oliYQjP 17y ago
    Felix Dennis has this to say on the subject: Whatever qualities the rich may have, they can be acquired by anyone with the tenacity to become rich. The key, I think, is confidence. Confidence and an unshakable belief it can be done and that you are the one to do it. I think that last part is key. Determined people feel an obligation to succeed. Most feel like the opportunity is theirs to lose and not gain. Here are some behaviours I've noticed when speaking to technical people that I think are determined: 1. They speak calmly -- almost without emotion -- about their plans, even while responding to criticism. I think this is because they've worked out all possible scenarios in their head so many times before that spouting off about them one more time is just rote exercise. It's almost like they're an objective third person describing the plan. 2. They confide in others about their vulnerabilities and weaknesses. I think determined people are just confident enough that they aren't over-confident. Over-confidence is what differentiates a determined winner from a stubborn loser. 3. They never settle when it matters. We all went to school with the guy or girl that scored an A on a test and threw a fit because they wanted an A+. You never get the sense that they're satisfied until the goal is reached. Most people think this is all a show, and that these determined types are rubbing their noses in the average folks faces. That is not the case at all. The average folks don't matter to these people. They never enter the equation. Other than these 3 things, I'm hard pressed to think of other characteristics. I've seen quiet determined people, loud mouth cocky ones, and everything in between.
  - thegoleffect 17y ago
    This is purely anecdotal but, most of the people I've met perceive a ceiling to their own potential. But, I know of less than a handful who refuse to accept the existence of a ceiling and as such nothing will stop them. I'm not claiming it is a cause of determination but it is at least a factor and I argue it is a feature found in most founders in your set of successful startups (accounting for dumb luck and randomness by not saying all founders).
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revorad 17y ago
This is a very interesting essay because for the first time pg explicitly states that even if you find something you love to do, it doesn't completely do away with the need for determination. You have to make up for the diff between your love and your users' needs. You have to try and minimise the need for determination by finding something you love to do. But to find what you love in the first place, you need determination, mainly in the form of discipline else there's the danger of wasting away from lack of willingness or being too willful for one's own good. There's some recursion going on here. Need to think this through to get my head around it.
JesseAldridge 17y ago
I have a feeling that "discipline", that is, getting yourself to do things by sheer force of will, only works in short bursts. For long periods, you need create a system for yourself that takes your own weakness into account. For example, for a long time I tended to exercise in intermittent bursts. I would do it for a few weeks, then catch a cold or something and fail to pick it up again afterword. The solution to this problem was to create a schedule for myself. I wake up, eat breakfast, check the internet, work for two hours, exercise, eat lunch, etc. Another important thing is strong principles. That is, you have to have clear, logical reasons for making the sacrifices necessary to achieve your goals. Every time you're tempted to do something other than pursue your goal you're going to have to argue with yourself. If you aren't completely convinced that what you're doing is truly worthwhile, temptation is eventually going to win.
- billswift 17y ago
  I don't know where you got that definition of "discipline". Discipline is the development of or training intended to produce a habitual and specific pattern of behavior. There are several slight variations in the meaning of discipline, but none that comes close to its being used as a synonym for will-power.
trunnell 17y ago
PG's essay is an excellent exploration (and adaptation) of these ideas about determination in the Boston Globe last month: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/the_truth_about_grit/ http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/... The basic research referenced in the Globe article was done at Penn: http://www.gritstudy.com/ http://www.gritstudy.com/ I wonder what the original researcher, Angela Duckworth, would have to say about PG's ideas.
stevenj 17y ago
I'm guessing this essay (at least partially) explains why Sama was included in Pg's "Five Founders" - http://paulgraham.com/5founders.html http://paulgraham.com/5founders.html. On a separate note, I think there's a typo in the 14th paragraph, second sentence: "There seem to be plenty of examples <of> confirm that."
nico 17y ago
In highschool there was this guy who used to study a lot. Everybody said he was studying too much, and that he needed to study that much because he wasn't that smart. Finally he graduated with one of the best averages in our class. Then he got into the best engineering school in Chile, and I remember thinking that maybe he wouldn't be able to make it, or that he wouldn't have such good grades. Well, I was wrong. He graduated from engineering with a great average. Now I don't know where this guy is working or what he's doing, but I have no doubt he will achieve whatever he sets himself to accomplish. For me, he is an incredible example of how will and discipline got him to achieve the things he wanted. 2 other stories about this guy: 1. Until he was around 12 he was fat. Then one day, after summer vacation he came back to school thin. He stayed like that at least until he finished engineering. 2. Junior year in highschool he had the best average in the advanced math class. There was a math competition and he was not chosen to go. When he asked the teacher about this, the teacher said: "for this competition we need talent, not effort"
- gaius 17y ago
  Reminds me of one of my classmates from undergrad. We were in the same hall in the first year, then we were housemates for the next two (in the final year he went back to halls and I, ermm, dropped out). Anyway, dude was a machine. He was smart, too, mind, but he put the hours in, working late into the night studying. And during the day he dominated every class, and make it look effortless. His elder brother was a total slacker, cared only about smoking dope, doing yoga and getting laid. So there's some nature vs nurture there.
  - silentbicycle 17y ago
    > So there's some nature vs nurture there. Not necessarily. Particularly if there was a couple years between them, there might have been an element of, "I'd better study hard - I want to accomplish stuff, not just goof off like my brother". I've seen the reverse a couple times, where a younger sibling grows up in the shadow of an older sibling widely considered to be really smart, so they try to compete by being really artistic or something instead.
- lutorm 17y ago
zaidf 17y ago
How do you build self-discipline? Offtopic: my surgeon dad always says medicine is over 50% determination. And in fact if you are too smart, you will probably quit and opt for a supposedly more rewarding, less painful profession.
- tome 17y ago
  Out of my own curiosity: why's medicine painful and unrewarding? I would have thought most non-medics believe it's one of the most rewarding professions to be in, along with nursing and teaching.
  - zaidf 17y ago
    4 years of pain in the ass medicial school 3-5 years of SUPER pain in the ass residency where you work 15-20hr days for $40,000. Then depending on your concentration you can make between 150-300K. Both my dad and my brother(who is in med school) chose medicine because of the medicial needs in the family than the monetary compensation.
Shalen 17y ago
>>> There's a third factor in achievement: how much you like the work. There is a lot of weight in this statement. My mantra has been "love what you do and do what you love". It has definitely served me very well and has been a catalyst for my determination. The other important aspect is your company to which PG alluded via "ambitious peers". Positive and intellectual energy around you is a great fuel for determination.
harshavr 17y ago
As a grad student in math, i would say that determination still plays a important role. For me, there have often been periods where you lose motivation and dont see why you are doing what you are doing, and then sometimes there are moments of clarity. (someone aptly compared this to mountain climbing). I imagine this happens in lots of other fields,(music, to pick a random example) where there is a prequisite of learning lots of arbitary things before understanding/creativity happens. Determination, is what you might need to to go through these phases.
- mreid 17y ago
  I agree. I had a problem with this specific claim by PG: "Most people would agree it's more admirable to be good at math than memorizing long strings of digits, even though the latter depends more on natural ability." Surely determination plus the right mnemonics can help anyone memorise long sequences of digits. I would have thought that reasoning creatively, carefully, and abstractly - i.e., mathematics - requires more natural talent, or at least a predisposition, than wanting to memorise digits.
  - thegoleffect 17y ago
    I agree with you about PG's claim. Memorization might appear to depend on natural ability as much as success depending on intelligence. To me, PG's one statement there contradicts the rest of the essay. As for creativity, reasoning, abstract mathematics, I don't think those have innate factors. If anything, the only thing stopping people from becoming exceptional in those fields is the belief that they cannot improve (== lack of determination).
- timwiseman 17y ago
  I certainly hope you are right. I am just starting my own graduate studies in math, but having limited apparant innate abilities in mathematics I am counting on practice and study to correct that deficiency.
  - harshavr 17y ago
    well, best of you luck! hope any possible bad phases dont get to you.
billbarhydt 17y ago
Every successful entrepreneur who has failed at least once should have his picture in the dictionary next to the word tenacity!
jeremyw 17y ago
Engergy: exercise! Discipline: honed by time's bitter lessons. Ambition 1, multiplying with partners: jettisoned. Uh oh. Ambition 2, outlook: had it, then found the Buddha. Fuck!
tmsh 17y ago
determination is a tricky thing. but i think there's also the ability to 'program yourself' to be determined. this usually means figuring out how to make whatever project you're working on fun -- and figuring out how to make sure the projects you're working on now and in the future are at least related to some long-term interest. great discussion though. there is probably a 'language' of determination. and more efficient ways of being determined than others. i mean determination etymologically is related to a terminus or boundary. it is literally the ability or quality of getting to a boundary. so if we infuse the meaning of determination with the idea of getting to a successful terminus -- we're referring to the ability to get the transaction done. in the case of startup space, one has to analyze what are the common set of obstacles that prevent getting the transaction done. well (1) the manner in which the final terminus needs to be renegotiated as the project changes and competing views about the desired end result are brought into view -- so negotiation of the final result is key. (2) taking advantage of previous solutions, not reinventing the wheel but (3) not using any wheels which are limited or limiting and (4) spending maximum time and energy on the specific product. but i think the most important thing is to regularly analyze whether or not one is on the optimal path to one's goal (first-round funding, e.g.) and also whether one can make the process of the development so bloody fun that one wants to spend as much time on the project as literally possible. the most undervalued link in the whole network of the problem space is between the founders and their problem space. i.e., figuring out how to spend as much time as possible in your REPL, with your design diagrams, or otherwise amongst your code. and now, i am just going to press 'add comment'. but yeah, nice article.
jacoblyles 17y ago
Can anyone suggest a method or example for improving self-discipline?
- pfedor 17y ago
  Good reading: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline/
- gaius 17y ago
  Sign up for a Marathon.
  - jacoblyles 17y ago
    ew.
adamc 17y ago
Worth reading. I don't like the word "determination" because it feels too heavy to me; too much of grim-faced men in it. But I think PG is at least close to the right idea.
MorrisCallaman 17y ago
This is extraordinarily insightful (and I admire how Paul's writing is getting stronger as he gets more and more comfortable with what he thinks).
newacc 17y ago
Fantastic Pg, one of the best essay ever .... Loved it when you said "Ambitious people are rare, ... When you take people like this and put them together with other ambitious people, they bloom like dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious people are starved for the sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious peers, whatever their age." IMO, Ambitious people are like power engine or say running water - its a old saying that running water never stops at any hurdles, no mater what - they pass thru huge mountains and forests - if a ambitious person loves what he/she is doing then nothing can stop him/her - you can see the fire in their eyes to succeed, the ambition and love for their work itself becomes determination ...
andreyf 17y ago
Like most essays of philosophy, this seems to stop at the formation of the hypothesis. And while the model is interesting, it's still important to ask "does it reflect reality?". To answer that, we need to quantify "discipline", "determination" and its sub-components. And then, see if they really are good predictors of successful founders?
bigmac 17y ago
This essay seems to be somewhat at odds with http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html from January 2005. Now, PG argues that discipline is an important component of determination. For startups, determination is called "the most important predictor of success." In the earlier essay, these comments were made: Now I know a number of people who do great work, and it's the same with all of them. They have little discipline. They're all terrible procrastinators and find it almost impossible to make themselves do anything they're not interested in. One still hasn't sent out his half of the thank-you notes from his wedding, four years ago. Another has 26,000 emails in her inbox. I'm not saying you can get away with zero self-discipline. You probably need about the amount you need to go running. PG, does this difference in opinion represent increased wisdom due to the experience gained from doing YC rounds? Or is it simply a nuanced or superficial difference?
- pg 17y ago
  I talk about this in the last two paragraphs. You need more discipline in a startup, because you have to work on what other people need rather than what you want.
  - gcheong 17y ago
    If we assume the best case is when what you want to do also solves a need for other people and the worst case is when a need is solved for other people but is something you have no desire to do, where do you see most startups falling on this spectrum?
- ananthrk 17y ago
  Chanced upon this comment from PG made long ago. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=179201 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=179201
david927 17y ago
Determination is great for investors because it increases the chance that they'll get a return. But the number of great ideas is x, and having a bunch of companies bound and determined to do something with x * 100 is relegating them to living under a horrible opportunity cost -- eating ramen for a subsistence profitability level when they could be doing something more interesting and profitable. A company needs to eventually have an idea that's both unique and compelling. It should optimize on having a sustainable competitive advantage. Determination is incredibly important because few companies start out with the right mix and usually have to experiment to get it right, but let's not over-idealize it. All the determination in the world won't let you make a cake with sand and olive oil. A founder has to know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."
epkann 17y ago
It's interesting that Paul believes willfulness is primarily inborn, especially since he now has a child. How would he react if his child were to exhibit lack of willfulness (a trait he clearly admires)? I agree that among siblings in the same family, one often observes a wide range of willfulness. However, the same family may not be as homogeneous an environment as Paul assumes. It's been shown that elite universities disproportionately admit eldest children and only children. It would seem that the differential upbringing that only and eldest children receive (in undivided parental time and attention, etc.) does result in increased willfulness, discipline, and/or intelligence. Ambitious people often hope that their children will exceed their own levels of achievement. Empirically, it seems that there is a strong regression-toward-the-mean effect among the children of parents who have done great things. I wonder how much of this is nature versus nurture - could there be a negative effect of growing up in too rich of an environment that diminishes one's chances of becoming a Steve Jobs or Paul Graham? How do you train willfulness and ambition in a child?
andyjenn 17y ago
"determination starts to look like talent." - can determination not be considered a talent in itself?
kuldeep_kap 17y ago
Great post, again! I think if you read the article again with categorizing all things into symptoms and cause, you'll get better understanding. Most people confuse between two and try to instill symptoms into themselves and mostly end-up at wrong end. You cannot simply say that from tomorrow I'll be more determined on my goals. There has to be passion, love and solid drive for what you do, as mentioned at the end of article. I think veterans and people who have been constantly successful at what they are doing would agree that love for what you do is an important component to success otherwise you will simply run out of your breathe by constant push without any passion.
ptn 17y ago
> you can definitely learn self-discipline; How would you go about that?
- a-priori 17y ago
  Same way as any other skill, by pushing your limits until they expand.
markm 17y ago
If determination is so important then are founders who've applied to YC several times given an advantage in future rounds?
jrcole 17y ago
"...one of the best ways to help a society generally is to create events and institutions that bring ambitious people together." in that I'd include the internet and things like social media sites
jrcole 17y ago
I'd say that sense of moral obligation to achieve -- tied in with making things better or removing an evil -- can play a large part in ambition and determination.

164 points by revorad 17y ago

> I can't think of any field in which determination is overrated Getting into land wars with Russia with winter approaching.

sharpn 17y ago
That's willfull. Having the discipline to wait until spring (no matter what the cost) would have been determined.
- davidw 17y ago
  If you're "ambitious", you may be going where no one has gone before. These days, everyone knows that getting into a land war with Russia is a bad idea, but it may not have always been so. Same thing with lots of other people whose ambition caused them to push the limits (mountain climbers?). If you're at the limits, you may not know when 'determination' means pushing on despite everything to achieve some great success, and when that same pushing on will cause you to die, when turning back may have let you live to fight another day. Not sure where I'm going with this, I guess I just like to play devil's advocate a bit:-) It's a good essay, but perhaps what I don't care for in general terms is the vagueness that surrounds the whole issue. Some people are smart because they push on in the face of great opposition. Others win plaudits for "knowing when to quit" and changing direction. It's all a bit wishy washy, although I think that PG's elements for success are, in a generic way, about right. Just that that vagueness sort of precludes one from applying them to specific situations until after the fact.
  - abalashov 17y ago
    I think that PG's elements for success are, in a generic way, about right. Just that that vagueness sort of precludes one from applying them to specific situations until after the fact. That was my sentiment as well, after reading. Much of what is said is difficult to argue with on an ideological level; it's just that it's rather abstract.
  - sharpn 17y ago
    Ok, to continue your (excellent) mountain-climbing analogy, the ultimate goal is to climb the mountain and return safely. Encountering potentially fatal difficulties near the summit will result in you turning back to retry later if you are "determined" to reach the ultimate goal. If you willfully abandon the long-term goal of returning safely to achieve the "ambition" of reaching the summit, that's reckless rather than disciplined.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    Some people are smart because they push on in the face of great opposition. Others win plaudits for "knowing when to quit" and changing direction. It's all a bit wishy washy, Its not that its wishy washy, its that one of the great keys to success is knowing the difference between the two. On the one hand, if you are on the right track you probably need to be ready to persevere in the face of enormous opposition, but if you are on the wrong track, no matter how far you have gone, change directions. Telling the difference can be quite challenging though, at least in some cases.
    - billswift 17y ago
      Exactly. It's like the old question of the difference between having an open mind versus holes in the head. Both vary so much between even similar situations, that there is no way of knowing which side of the line cases fall on, unless they are extremely good or bad, except try it and see.
  - marvin 17y ago
    This contains some good points concerning development in dangerous areas: aviation, extreme sports, mountain climbing etc. In order to push the field forward, you have to do stuff where the risks are not known beforehand. So choosing to push in a given direction can cause great improvements in the entire field, or kill you. This is one of the reasons I will never try to become a world-class glider pilot.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  that's post hoc analysis of what "determination" is defined as. that makes it less useful as a metric of success.

rw 17y ago

Very true in my experience: "When you take people like this and put them together with other ambitious people, they bloom like dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious people are starved for the sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious peers, whatever their age."

abalashov 17y ago
I've had the opposite experience, depending on what kinds of personalities are involved. Sometimes when you put several ambitious people together, they all destructively interfere with each other with the strength they radiate, particularly if they're young and inexperienced. Ambitious people are almost always more granular and more preoccupied control freaks than people who are less ambitious. That can be a problem unless they are also diplomatic, pragmatic and wise.
- logicalmind 17y ago
  This has been my experience as well. Their ambitions must align, at least somewhat. If ambitious person A wants to go one direction and ambitious person B wants to go another direction, it probably won't work. But being around other ambitious people at least gives you the opportunity to meet someone with ambition and goals that align with your goals.
c3o 17y ago
That's exactly what I feel hacker spaces do. http://hackerspaces.org http://hackerspaces.org

araneae 17y ago

Is there any hope for someone who is extremely willful but not all that disciplined? :/

gruseom 17y ago
Have the discipline to read the whole essay; it explicitly addresses that.
- Andys 17y ago
  Or it may merely explain why you aren't succeeding, even though you are willful :-)
- araneae 17y ago
  Not really. He says it's possible to become more disciplined, but there's no support for that in the text beyond just the statement. On top of that, there have been all these HN links about how the traditional ways to make oneself disciplined only serve to make the willful types less likely to do them. Nothing kills one's desire to accomplish something more than trying to force oneself to do it. All in all it's an unhelpful essay.

sharpn 17y ago

Good points well made. An interesting second-derivation of this is with co-founders. Two (or more) people who share a goal can spur each other on via internal competitiveness & a symbiotic pattern of compensating for dips in the other's discipline or willpower. For example I'm sure neither Lennon or McCartney would have achieved half of their combined output.

ankeshk 17y ago

1. Easy way to become better at controlling will power is controlling your diet. Yep - glucose increases will power. http://psr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/11/4/303 http://psr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/11/4/303 2. "Environment trumps discipline" I'd read an article that said that for most people - their income will be very close to the average income of their 5 closest friends. Create the environment - and discipline will come on its own. 3. Ambition either comes from having kickass heroes or from facing strong problems. England started becoming a super power only when King Henry read the book of King Arthur and his Knights of the round table. (King Arthur's story was a false story written by Thomas Malory - while in prison. A convict changed the fortunes of England which was until then a land of misfits and barbarians - by giving them a hero!) When there is a lack of heroes, you need strong problems to build that burning ambition. Eg: how Chandragupta and Chanakya went on to unite India 2300 years ago - because Alexander threatened their existence. Up until Alexander showed up in India - no one even dreamt of uniting India... 4. I think what is missing is luck - which can also be hacked somewhat. Book: The Luck Factor: The 4 Essential Principles: http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-Four-Essential-Principles/dp/1401359418/ http://www.amazon.com/Luck-Factor-Four-Essential-Principles/...

radu_floricica 17y ago
About 1: Glucose is necessary, not sufficient. You don't have it and willpower suffers. You have in excess and you just get fat.
- ankeshk 17y ago
  Good point. I think it would also be interesting to ask religious folks how they get willpower to fast. Fasting means lack of glucose in your body. Yet fasting is a showcase of willpower. So maybe some interesting answers may come from them...
  - wr1472 17y ago
    I am fasting at the moment from around 4am to 8pm. I was very apprehensive before I started this year as the days were longer this time round - I thought I would really struggle. However I have to say food has been the least of my worries. It is all in the mind not in the stomach. Once you know you can't do something you don't consider it as an option. I didn't have to mentally or physically prepare I just got on with it. In the two weeks of fasting I have lost weight, I end up gorging in the evenings and find that I can pretty much eat what I want and not worry about it. For the non-religious it would be a good way to lose weight and discipline yourself (just don't call it a diet). I do know though that if I break one of my fasts because I got hungry it will be very easy for me to break the next.

edawerd 17y ago

This has got to be, in my opinion, my 2nd favorite PG essay, right after the 'How Not to Die' essay. So here in sum is how determination seems to work: it consists of willfulness balanced with discipline, aimed by ambition. The essay is probably meant to help investors pick good investments. But I say that founders can use it to help pick good co-founders, as well as improve themselves. I would love to read more on things/characteristics about a person that might give evidence of a person's willfulness, discipline and ambition, or lack thereof.

xenophanes 17y ago

> A good deal of willfulness must be inborn, because it's common to see families where one sibling has much more of it than another. This is a non-sequitur. The hidden assumption seems to be that siblings in the observed families are treated exactly the same and have exactly the same environment, in every way, which is blatantly false.

trunnell 17y ago
Furthermore, if willfulness is purely inborn (or genetic) wouldn't siblings be more likely to exhibit similar strengths of will, since they have such similar DNA? In a family, nature and nurture are mixed together. The only way to separate the two components are with twin studies where the twins are raised separately.
pg 17y ago
It's also random which kids are willful. It's not simply the firstborn.
- akd 17y ago
  It's also "random" (more like unpredictable) which kids receive what types of environments. Sometimes, Dad's favorite is the eldest son, sometimes Daddy's favorite is the youngest daughter.

jack7890 17y ago

Would be curious to know how he actually evaluates determination when analyzing startups. How can you tell?

pg 17y ago
It's hard; that's our biggest problem. It's straightforward to tell in a 10 minute conversation how smart someone is, but very hard to tell how determined they are. When we pick wrong it's almost always by misjudging determination.
- 9oliYQjP 17y ago
  Felix Dennis has this to say on the subject: Whatever qualities the rich may have, they can be acquired by anyone with the tenacity to become rich. The key, I think, is confidence. Confidence and an unshakable belief it can be done and that you are the one to do it. I think that last part is key. Determined people feel an obligation to succeed. Most feel like the opportunity is theirs to lose and not gain. Here are some behaviours I've noticed when speaking to technical people that I think are determined: 1. They speak calmly -- almost without emotion -- about their plans, even while responding to criticism. I think this is because they've worked out all possible scenarios in their head so many times before that spouting off about them one more time is just rote exercise. It's almost like they're an objective third person describing the plan. 2. They confide in others about their vulnerabilities and weaknesses. I think determined people are just confident enough that they aren't over-confident. Over-confidence is what differentiates a determined winner from a stubborn loser. 3. They never settle when it matters. We all went to school with the guy or girl that scored an A on a test and threw a fit because they wanted an A+. You never get the sense that they're satisfied until the goal is reached. Most people think this is all a show, and that these determined types are rubbing their noses in the average folks faces. That is not the case at all. The average folks don't matter to these people. They never enter the equation. Other than these 3 things, I'm hard pressed to think of other characteristics. I've seen quiet determined people, loud mouth cocky ones, and everything in between.
- thegoleffect 17y ago
  This is purely anecdotal but, most of the people I've met perceive a ceiling to their own potential. But, I know of less than a handful who refuse to accept the existence of a ceiling and as such nothing will stop them. I'm not claiming it is a cause of determination but it is at least a factor and I argue it is a feature found in most founders in your set of successful startups (accounting for dumb luck and randomness by not saying all founders).

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revorad 17y ago

This is a very interesting essay because for the first time pg explicitly states that even if you find something you love to do, it doesn't completely do away with the need for determination. You have to make up for the diff between your love and your users' needs. You have to try and minimise the need for determination by finding something you love to do. But to find what you love in the first place, you need determination, mainly in the form of discipline else there's the danger of wasting away from lack of willingness or being too willful for one's own good. There's some recursion going on here. Need to think this through to get my head around it.

JesseAldridge 17y ago

I have a feeling that "discipline", that is, getting yourself to do things by sheer force of will, only works in short bursts. For long periods, you need create a system for yourself that takes your own weakness into account. For example, for a long time I tended to exercise in intermittent bursts. I would do it for a few weeks, then catch a cold or something and fail to pick it up again afterword. The solution to this problem was to create a schedule for myself. I wake up, eat breakfast, check the internet, work for two hours, exercise, eat lunch, etc. Another important thing is strong principles. That is, you have to have clear, logical reasons for making the sacrifices necessary to achieve your goals. Every time you're tempted to do something other than pursue your goal you're going to have to argue with yourself. If you aren't completely convinced that what you're doing is truly worthwhile, temptation is eventually going to win.

billswift 17y ago
I don't know where you got that definition of "discipline". Discipline is the development of or training intended to produce a habitual and specific pattern of behavior. There are several slight variations in the meaning of discipline, but none that comes close to its being used as a synonym for will-power.

trunnell 17y ago

PG's essay is an excellent exploration (and adaptation) of these ideas about determination in the Boston Globe last month: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/the_truth_about_grit/ http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/02/... The basic research referenced in the Globe article was done at Penn: http://www.gritstudy.com/ http://www.gritstudy.com/ I wonder what the original researcher, Angela Duckworth, would have to say about PG's ideas.

stevenj 17y ago

I'm guessing this essay (at least partially) explains why Sama was included in Pg's "Five Founders" - http://paulgraham.com/5founders.html http://paulgraham.com/5founders.html. On a separate note, I think there's a typo in the 14th paragraph, second sentence: "There seem to be plenty of examples <of> confirm that."

nico 17y ago

In highschool there was this guy who used to study a lot. Everybody said he was studying too much, and that he needed to study that much because he wasn't that smart. Finally he graduated with one of the best averages in our class. Then he got into the best engineering school in Chile, and I remember thinking that maybe he wouldn't be able to make it, or that he wouldn't have such good grades. Well, I was wrong. He graduated from engineering with a great average. Now I don't know where this guy is working or what he's doing, but I have no doubt he will achieve whatever he sets himself to accomplish. For me, he is an incredible example of how will and discipline got him to achieve the things he wanted. 2 other stories about this guy: 1. Until he was around 12 he was fat. Then one day, after summer vacation he came back to school thin. He stayed like that at least until he finished engineering. 2. Junior year in highschool he had the best average in the advanced math class. There was a math competition and he was not chosen to go. When he asked the teacher about this, the teacher said: "for this competition we need talent, not effort"

gaius 17y ago
Reminds me of one of my classmates from undergrad. We were in the same hall in the first year, then we were housemates for the next two (in the final year he went back to halls and I, ermm, dropped out). Anyway, dude was a machine. He was smart, too, mind, but he put the hours in, working late into the night studying. And during the day he dominated every class, and make it look effortless. His elder brother was a total slacker, cared only about smoking dope, doing yoga and getting laid. So there's some nature vs nurture there.
- silentbicycle 17y ago
  > So there's some nature vs nurture there. Not necessarily. Particularly if there was a couple years between them, there might have been an element of, "I'd better study hard - I want to accomplish stuff, not just goof off like my brother". I've seen the reverse a couple times, where a younger sibling grows up in the shadow of an older sibling widely considered to be really smart, so they try to compete by being really artistic or something instead.
lutorm 17y ago

zaidf 17y ago

How do you build self-discipline? Offtopic: my surgeon dad always says medicine is over 50% determination. And in fact if you are too smart, you will probably quit and opt for a supposedly more rewarding, less painful profession.

tome 17y ago
Out of my own curiosity: why's medicine painful and unrewarding? I would have thought most non-medics believe it's one of the most rewarding professions to be in, along with nursing and teaching.
- zaidf 17y ago
  4 years of pain in the ass medicial school 3-5 years of SUPER pain in the ass residency where you work 15-20hr days for $40,000. Then depending on your concentration you can make between 150-300K. Both my dad and my brother(who is in med school) chose medicine because of the medicial needs in the family than the monetary compensation.

Shalen 17y ago

>>> There's a third factor in achievement: how much you like the work. There is a lot of weight in this statement. My mantra has been "love what you do and do what you love". It has definitely served me very well and has been a catalyst for my determination. The other important aspect is your company to which PG alluded via "ambitious peers". Positive and intellectual energy around you is a great fuel for determination.

harshavr 17y ago

As a grad student in math, i would say that determination still plays a important role. For me, there have often been periods where you lose motivation and dont see why you are doing what you are doing, and then sometimes there are moments of clarity. (someone aptly compared this to mountain climbing). I imagine this happens in lots of other fields,(music, to pick a random example) where there is a prequisite of learning lots of arbitary things before understanding/creativity happens. Determination, is what you might need to to go through these phases.

mreid 17y ago
I agree. I had a problem with this specific claim by PG: "Most people would agree it's more admirable to be good at math than memorizing long strings of digits, even though the latter depends more on natural ability." Surely determination plus the right mnemonics can help anyone memorise long sequences of digits. I would have thought that reasoning creatively, carefully, and abstractly - i.e., mathematics - requires more natural talent, or at least a predisposition, than wanting to memorise digits.
- thegoleffect 17y ago
  I agree with you about PG's claim. Memorization might appear to depend on natural ability as much as success depending on intelligence. To me, PG's one statement there contradicts the rest of the essay. As for creativity, reasoning, abstract mathematics, I don't think those have innate factors. If anything, the only thing stopping people from becoming exceptional in those fields is the belief that they cannot improve (== lack of determination).
timwiseman 17y ago
I certainly hope you are right. I am just starting my own graduate studies in math, but having limited apparant innate abilities in mathematics I am counting on practice and study to correct that deficiency.
- harshavr 17y ago
  well, best of you luck! hope any possible bad phases dont get to you.

billbarhydt 17y ago

Every successful entrepreneur who has failed at least once should have his picture in the dictionary next to the word tenacity!

jeremyw 17y ago

Engergy: exercise! Discipline: honed by time's bitter lessons. Ambition 1, multiplying with partners: jettisoned. Uh oh. Ambition 2, outlook: had it, then found the Buddha. Fuck!

tmsh 17y ago

determination is a tricky thing. but i think there's also the ability to 'program yourself' to be determined. this usually means figuring out how to make whatever project you're working on fun -- and figuring out how to make sure the projects you're working on now and in the future are at least related to some long-term interest. great discussion though. there is probably a 'language' of determination. and more efficient ways of being determined than others. i mean determination etymologically is related to a terminus or boundary. it is literally the ability or quality of getting to a boundary. so if we infuse the meaning of determination with the idea of getting to a successful terminus -- we're referring to the ability to get the transaction done. in the case of startup space, one has to analyze what are the common set of obstacles that prevent getting the transaction done. well (1) the manner in which the final terminus needs to be renegotiated as the project changes and competing views about the desired end result are brought into view -- so negotiation of the final result is key. (2) taking advantage of previous solutions, not reinventing the wheel but (3) not using any wheels which are limited or limiting and (4) spending maximum time and energy on the specific product. but i think the most important thing is to regularly analyze whether or not one is on the optimal path to one's goal (first-round funding, e.g.) and also whether one can make the process of the development so bloody fun that one wants to spend as much time on the project as literally possible. the most undervalued link in the whole network of the problem space is between the founders and their problem space. i.e., figuring out how to spend as much time as possible in your REPL, with your design diagrams, or otherwise amongst your code. and now, i am just going to press 'add comment'. but yeah, nice article.

jacoblyles 17y ago

Can anyone suggest a method or example for improving self-discipline?

pfedor 17y ago
Good reading: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline/
gaius 17y ago
Sign up for a Marathon.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  ew.

adamc 17y ago

Worth reading. I don't like the word "determination" because it feels too heavy to me; too much of grim-faced men in it. But I think PG is at least close to the right idea.

MorrisCallaman 17y ago

This is extraordinarily insightful (and I admire how Paul's writing is getting stronger as he gets more and more comfortable with what he thinks).

newacc 17y ago

Fantastic Pg, one of the best essay ever .... Loved it when you said "Ambitious people are rare, ... When you take people like this and put them together with other ambitious people, they bloom like dying plants given water. Probably most ambitious people are starved for the sort of encouragement they'd get from ambitious peers, whatever their age." IMO, Ambitious people are like power engine or say running water - its a old saying that running water never stops at any hurdles, no mater what - they pass thru huge mountains and forests - if a ambitious person loves what he/she is doing then nothing can stop him/her - you can see the fire in their eyes to succeed, the ambition and love for their work itself becomes determination ...

andreyf 17y ago

Like most essays of philosophy, this seems to stop at the formation of the hypothesis. And while the model is interesting, it's still important to ask "does it reflect reality?". To answer that, we need to quantify "discipline", "determination" and its sub-components. And then, see if they really are good predictors of successful founders?

bigmac 17y ago

This essay seems to be somewhat at odds with http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html from January 2005. Now, PG argues that discipline is an important component of determination. For startups, determination is called "the most important predictor of success." In the earlier essay, these comments were made: Now I know a number of people who do great work, and it's the same with all of them. They have little discipline. They're all terrible procrastinators and find it almost impossible to make themselves do anything they're not interested in. One still hasn't sent out his half of the thank-you notes from his wedding, four years ago. Another has 26,000 emails in her inbox. I'm not saying you can get away with zero self-discipline. You probably need about the amount you need to go running. PG, does this difference in opinion represent increased wisdom due to the experience gained from doing YC rounds? Or is it simply a nuanced or superficial difference?

pg 17y ago
I talk about this in the last two paragraphs. You need more discipline in a startup, because you have to work on what other people need rather than what you want.
- gcheong 17y ago
  If we assume the best case is when what you want to do also solves a need for other people and the worst case is when a need is solved for other people but is something you have no desire to do, where do you see most startups falling on this spectrum?
ananthrk 17y ago
Chanced upon this comment from PG made long ago. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=179201 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=179201

david927 17y ago

Determination is great for investors because it increases the chance that they'll get a return. But the number of great ideas is x, and having a bunch of companies bound and determined to do something with x * 100 is relegating them to living under a horrible opportunity cost -- eating ramen for a subsistence profitability level when they could be doing something more interesting and profitable. A company needs to eventually have an idea that's both unique and compelling. It should optimize on having a sustainable competitive advantage. Determination is incredibly important because few companies start out with the right mix and usually have to experiment to get it right, but let's not over-idealize it. All the determination in the world won't let you make a cake with sand and olive oil. A founder has to know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."

epkann 17y ago

It's interesting that Paul believes willfulness is primarily inborn, especially since he now has a child. How would he react if his child were to exhibit lack of willfulness (a trait he clearly admires)? I agree that among siblings in the same family, one often observes a wide range of willfulness. However, the same family may not be as homogeneous an environment as Paul assumes. It's been shown that elite universities disproportionately admit eldest children and only children. It would seem that the differential upbringing that only and eldest children receive (in undivided parental time and attention, etc.) does result in increased willfulness, discipline, and/or intelligence. Ambitious people often hope that their children will exceed their own levels of achievement. Empirically, it seems that there is a strong regression-toward-the-mean effect among the children of parents who have done great things. I wonder how much of this is nature versus nurture - could there be a negative effect of growing up in too rich of an environment that diminishes one's chances of becoming a Steve Jobs or Paul Graham? How do you train willfulness and ambition in a child?

andyjenn 17y ago

"determination starts to look like talent." - can determination not be considered a talent in itself?

kuldeep_kap 17y ago

Great post, again! I think if you read the article again with categorizing all things into symptoms and cause, you'll get better understanding. Most people confuse between two and try to instill symptoms into themselves and mostly end-up at wrong end. You cannot simply say that from tomorrow I'll be more determined on my goals. There has to be passion, love and solid drive for what you do, as mentioned at the end of article. I think veterans and people who have been constantly successful at what they are doing would agree that love for what you do is an important component to success otherwise you will simply run out of your breathe by constant push without any passion.

ptn 17y ago

> you can definitely learn self-discipline; How would you go about that?

a-priori 17y ago
Same way as any other skill, by pushing your limits until they expand.

markm 17y ago

If determination is so important then are founders who've applied to YC several times given an advantage in future rounds?

jrcole 17y ago

"...one of the best ways to help a society generally is to create events and institutions that bring ambitious people together." in that I'd include the internet and things like social media sites

jrcole 17y ago

I'd say that sense of moral obligation to achieve -- tied in with making things better or removing an evil -- can play a large part in ambition and determination.