5 ms·

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired"

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the guys would just say "lol" and the women wouldn't respond at all. What should have happened (and I'm guilty of not doing this) is that all of the other men should have stepped in and said "Hey, you know, that's not cool." A lot of why this kind of stuff happens, I think, is that there's a sort of acceptance implied by the fact that so few men speak out about it. We just let it happen. We frown inside -- or maybe we really think it's funny! -- but we never say "Don't do that." A strong culture of morality, of speaking up when something is wrong, would go a long way to helping foster a safe, secure atmosphere. Public shaming will stop that behavior in its tracks. Eventually, either the harassment stops or that person leaves. In the case of my coworker, I don't think he really thought things through. I don't think he meant to be offensive or post sexually harassing things, I think he just honestly thought they were funny and posted them. That doesn't make it okay, but it doesn't mean he needs to be fired, either. He just needed to be told "That's not cool" enough times to make it stick. As far as external harassment goes, like the ones in the article, I'm not really sure. I think we as a community need to just stand up against this type of behavior, but it's hard when the harassment is all private, like via email or text messages. TL;DR Say "That's not cool" when bad shit goes on.

gknoy 12y ago
Great point. I know that when I see mildly inappropriate, my first reaction is to laugh, even if it's not always the right reaction. My kids are at the age where they make poop and fart jokes, and I confess that I find them funny. I fear I will always find them funny. I am unable to be upset when my kids swear -- even if I don't think they should be using those particular words. (Was there ever a more sincere expression of three year old frustration than when you overhear them saying, "Fucking _bummer_"?) But, at work, it feels like there's a different line. The things I would laugh at if I saw them on my Facebook feed (linked by ladies or men) would make me uncomfortable to encounter at work. The mild "so to speak" banter, or the (non-sexual) mild harassment that men and women friends have had has always been funny, but I feel weird when I hear it at work. My inner dialog is usually, "I'm not offended, but ... is that okay? Are we allowed to joke about ... ?" I tend to listen a lot more than I speak at work, as you can probably tell. ;)
tomp 12y ago
Personally, I disagree. I have no problem my coworkers saying dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes, whether they are male or female. If I worked at a company that claimed to have a "relaxed" office culture (i.e. most startups, not corporations), I would strongly voice my opinion that such censorship is inappropriate. The recent case of an Attlasian developer making a joke about his girlfriend at a conference comes to mind - I would offer my support for such a coworker and publicly state that I think the company's reaction was inappropriate. Obviously, if people want to opt out of such email, they should be able to, but some might also do it for other reasons (e.g. prefer less distractions in their inbox).
- cyorir 12y ago
  I think that in a lot of companies, this would be a terrible approach to take. By not standing up against such things, you could easily destroy the cohesion in a company. Maybe if you have a very homogenous company then noone will be there to take offence (that doesn't make it right), but the fact is that most companies are becoming more diverse and it is in their interests to support all members of the company to retain cohesion and efficiency - that means protecting them against their own coworkers, who may be racist, sexist, etc. In addition, a company doesn't want it to get out that it has a very toxic work environment, as that could harm relations with consumers and partners. You might call it censorship, but the fact is that companies must do what they need to to protect individual employees against a toxic culture.
  - tomp 12y ago
    I totally agree with all that you said, the thing is that I don't think that racist jokes mean that someone is a racist, and joking about one's girlfriend doesn't make a man sexist. I don't think those make for a toxic culture, only for a relaxed culture. But then again, I'm from Europe - I understand that Americans are quite a bit more puritanical about certain things (e.g. sex, cursing and race), and maybe less about others (violence and gore).
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Torgo 12y ago
In every other situation this place bemoans the cruelty and stupidity of "zero tolerance," which I think is the correct reaction. Other than that I agree with everything you're saying.
7Figures2Commas 12y ago
> I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. What you describe is not a zero tolerance policy. A zero tolerance policy requires punishment and "Hey, that's not cool" is not punishment. If an employee is harassing another employee, he or she should be punished. Depending on the nature of the harassment and the employee's prior violations of company policy, the offending employee should absolutely understand that termination may result. > At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the guys would just say "lol" and the women wouldn't respond at all. What should have happened (and I'm guilty of not doing this) is that all of the other men should have stepped in and said "Hey, you know, that's not cool." This is precisely why your approach to the problem doesn't work: the first response of the people you're asking to say "Hey, that's not cool" is to "lol" when presented with a NSFW picture at work. This is simply a reflection of the fact that some percentage of employees are not mature and professional enough to have developed an awareness of the environment they're in. It's silly to expect self-policing from folks who don't understand that a NSFW photo that might genuinely be amusing when shared outside of work can be incredibly awkward or offensive when shared at work.
- Jemaclus 12y ago
  Well, I think my point is that I wasn't one of the "lol" people, and I should have been one of the people to say "Hey, that's not cool," and this post is me promising myself that in the future, I will speak up. I don't disagree with you, though. An official policy is great, but I think sometimes people just say things without thinking, and I don't necessarily think punishment (beyond public shaming of some kind) is really necessary in 100% of cases, which is kind of what I was getting at. If it was something blatant and clearly intentional, then absolutely get HR involved, but sometimes people just say things unintentionally. I dunno. It's a very, very tricky, complicated topic, but in the end, I think we both agree that those with the power (socially or professionally) should absolutely step in and stop inappropriate behavior.
georgiapeach 12y ago
Good job equating death threats with what some easily offended pearl-clutcher thinks is a sexist joke.

gknoy 12y ago

Great point. I know that when I see mildly inappropriate, my first reaction is to laugh, even if it's not always the right reaction. My kids are at the age where they make poop and fart jokes, and I confess that I find them funny. I fear I will always find them funny. I am unable to be upset when my kids swear -- even if I don't think they should be using those particular words. (Was there ever a more sincere expression of three year old frustration than when you overhear them saying, "Fucking _bummer_"?) But, at work, it feels like there's a different line. The things I would laugh at if I saw them on my Facebook feed (linked by ladies or men) would make me uncomfortable to encounter at work. The mild "so to speak" banter, or the (non-sexual) mild harassment that men and women friends have had has always been funny, but I feel weird when I hear it at work. My inner dialog is usually, "I'm not offended, but ... is that okay? Are we allowed to joke about ... ?" I tend to listen a lot more than I speak at work, as you can probably tell. ;)

tomp 12y ago

Personally, I disagree. I have no problem my coworkers saying dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes, whether they are male or female. If I worked at a company that claimed to have a "relaxed" office culture (i.e. most startups, not corporations), I would strongly voice my opinion that such censorship is inappropriate. The recent case of an Attlasian developer making a joke about his girlfriend at a conference comes to mind - I would offer my support for such a coworker and publicly state that I think the company's reaction was inappropriate. Obviously, if people want to opt out of such email, they should be able to, but some might also do it for other reasons (e.g. prefer less distractions in their inbox).

cyorir 12y ago
I think that in a lot of companies, this would be a terrible approach to take. By not standing up against such things, you could easily destroy the cohesion in a company. Maybe if you have a very homogenous company then noone will be there to take offence (that doesn't make it right), but the fact is that most companies are becoming more diverse and it is in their interests to support all members of the company to retain cohesion and efficiency - that means protecting them against their own coworkers, who may be racist, sexist, etc. In addition, a company doesn't want it to get out that it has a very toxic work environment, as that could harm relations with consumers and partners. You might call it censorship, but the fact is that companies must do what they need to to protect individual employees against a toxic culture.
- tomp 12y ago
  I totally agree with all that you said, the thing is that I don't think that racist jokes mean that someone is a racist, and joking about one's girlfriend doesn't make a man sexist. I don't think those make for a toxic culture, only for a relaxed culture. But then again, I'm from Europe - I understand that Americans are quite a bit more puritanical about certain things (e.g. sex, cursing and race), and maybe less about others (violence and gore).
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago

Torgo 12y ago

In every other situation this place bemoans the cruelty and stupidity of "zero tolerance," which I think is the correct reaction. Other than that I agree with everything you're saying.

7Figures2Commas 12y ago

> I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. What you describe is not a zero tolerance policy. A zero tolerance policy requires punishment and "Hey, that's not cool" is not punishment. If an employee is harassing another employee, he or she should be punished. Depending on the nature of the harassment and the employee's prior violations of company policy, the offending employee should absolutely understand that termination may result. > At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the guys would just say "lol" and the women wouldn't respond at all. What should have happened (and I'm guilty of not doing this) is that all of the other men should have stepped in and said "Hey, you know, that's not cool." This is precisely why your approach to the problem doesn't work: the first response of the people you're asking to say "Hey, that's not cool" is to "lol" when presented with a NSFW picture at work. This is simply a reflection of the fact that some percentage of employees are not mature and professional enough to have developed an awareness of the environment they're in. It's silly to expect self-policing from folks who don't understand that a NSFW photo that might genuinely be amusing when shared outside of work can be incredibly awkward or offensive when shared at work.

Jemaclus 12y ago
Well, I think my point is that I wasn't one of the "lol" people, and I should have been one of the people to say "Hey, that's not cool," and this post is me promising myself that in the future, I will speak up. I don't disagree with you, though. An official policy is great, but I think sometimes people just say things without thinking, and I don't necessarily think punishment (beyond public shaming of some kind) is really necessary in 100% of cases, which is kind of what I was getting at. If it was something blatant and clearly intentional, then absolutely get HR involved, but sometimes people just say things unintentionally. I dunno. It's a very, very tricky, complicated topic, but in the end, I think we both agree that those with the power (socially or professionally) should absolutely step in and stop inappropriate behavior.

georgiapeach 12y ago

Good job equating death threats with what some easily offended pearl-clutcher thinks is a sexist joke.