5 ms·

This is the sort of journalism I would expect to find on Jezebel, rather than Polygon. Filled with us vs. them mentality: no man can understand, men all think

by Zikes 12y ago

This is the sort of journalism I would expect to find on Jezebel, rather than Polygon. Filled with us vs. them mentality: no man can understand, men all think this, men always tell us that. Men never deal with harassment, death threats, or rape threats. Well, here's a little variation on Hitchens' Razor: what can be proven with anecdotal evidence can be dismissed with anecdotal evidence. http://www.edge-online.com/features/toxic-games-community-could-drive-developers-to-suicide-warns-adam-orth/ http://www.edge-online.com/features/toxic-games-community-co... http://i.imgur.com/HBxSZBF.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HBxSZBF.jpg The worst of it is, one paragraph opens with "Women in the industry are told by men what is valid for us to feel." and only a scant few paragraphs later is an entire article written by a woman telling men how they should act and feel. Part of which is "so great" that it deserved to be made into an "inspirational poster". Everyone thinks what they have to say is inherently valuable, I'm pretty sure that's a major component of the human condition.

arrrg 12y ago
Not all men, eh? Don’t be so sensitive, grow a thicker skin! Is it really so hard for you to believe that you can’t understand – at least not completely – the situation someone is in? I would never be so arrogant as to believe that I, as someone who is straight, understand how it is to grow up gay, for example.
- Zikes 12y ago
  It's good to see that sloganeering and thought-terminating cliches will drive what could have been a proper debate on the issue. I guess there's no room at all for dissenting opinions, especially when they point out hypocrisies or bring counter evidence to the discussion.
  - arrrg 12y ago
    What hypocrisies? There are none. You are imagining those. When there is something you cannot understand it’s proper to address that with “Men just don’t …” That’s ok. It’s no claim that all men act disgustingly, it’s only a claim that men don’t understand. That’s also completely unrelated to the “What can you – as a man – do to help?” part. I mean, where is the connection there. You are saying very confusing things.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      Hypocrisy is saying men should not tell women how to feel, and then following that up with an entire article telling men how to feel and behave. Pretty sure I didn't imagine that.
      - arrrg 12y ago
        I don’t think you quite understood what that article was talking about … you seem quite confused. I’m sorry.
        Zikes 12y ago
        If I seem confused to you, that is a failing on both our parts. Let's take a moment to correct that. On the issue of the author's hypocrisy, I have clearly stated the contradictions in the article which satisfy the definition of the term. I don't think there is any confusion on that and after another read I don't think my comments on that point specifically could lead you to believe I'm confused about that issue. So, what is it exactly that makes you think I'm confused? Was it anything in particular that I've said, or perhaps since you think I don't understand the article as a whole, do you think I'm making the wrong points entirely?
        arrrg 12y ago
        The linked article gives men actionable advice on how to support women. It does not tell men what their experience is.
      - laserDinosaur 12y ago
        And now you are on hacker news telling people how they should feel. How hypocritical of you.
        Zikes 12y ago
        Today I learned that calling out people's sexist propaganda is actually telling people how they should feel. I am enlightened, you should feel proud of yourself. (whoops, sorry) (not really)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
lukasb 12y ago
Pretend for the moment we're in some crazy mirror world where women are frequently mistreated, in ways that many well-meaning men don't see. In this world, it makes sense for a woman to lecture those well-meaning men about empathy - to ask them not to tell women what to feel - because they're just missing some basic information.
- Zikes 12y ago
  Pretend for a moment we're in some crazy mirror world where whites are frequently mistreated, in ways that many well-meaning blacks don't see. In this world, it makes sense for a white to lecture those well-meaning blacks about empathy - to ask them not to tell whites how to feel - because they're just missing some basic information. No, wait, that would be racist. But your version magically is not sexist? Edit: To the folks downvoting this without being able to offer a counterpoint: that strong negative emotion you're feeling? That's called cognitive dissonance.
  - Rudism 12y ago
    I think you're being downvoted because you may have misunderstood the parent comment and replied with an analogy that makes no sense.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      There is no misunderstanding. The parent comment is trying to reinforce the practice of pitting the genders against each other and continues to argue that men need condescendingly "lectured" on the matter. My change in wording is meant to show how ridiculous a notion that is. Sexist remarks in articles such as this are getting a free pass because at one time feminism served a purpose, and today's hypersensitive political-correctness puts it above reproach. But when you take those same statements and put them on an axis of racism, their nature is revealed.
      - scott_s 12y ago
        The view of the piece's author is that there are things going on that women experience that some men are not aware of. She is trying to explain those things. You feel this is being "condescendingly lectured", and I don't see a way around it. Being receptive to someone explaining something to you requires that you: 1. acknowledge you do not know or understand that thing; 2. acknowledge that the other person does; 3. are willing to receive that knowledge from the other person. If you are not willing to grant any one of those, you will feel the other person is being condescending.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- Zikes 12y ago
  It's making sweeping, disparaging generalizations about the male gender.
Steko 12y ago
Am I wrong that this would have been the top upvoted comment on HN 5 years ago? If so maybe that counts as a tiny bit of progress/small strides. Or maybe this will be the top voted when I come back later, /sigh...
- Zikes 12y ago
  If you disagree with any of the points I've made, I'm all ears. I did not make that comment in some lame attempt to troll or stir up controversy. I have presented my case against using the harassment of women in gaming as an excuse to target and harass the male demographic, and I'm willing to discuss it further with anyone that's interested.
  - sp332 12y ago
    As a male, I didn't feel targeted by the article. I don't think the article was anti-men, it was just pro-women which is not the same thing. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of harassment I could get as a result of the article.
    - Zikes 12y ago
      > I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion. > A male friend of mine that develops AAA games told me, "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly. I’m trying to get better about it." I don’t think his is a unique experience. > We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out. I don't know how anyone, male or female, could read that excerpt and not be offended. First, it starts out by basically asserting the premise that men do not get rape threats. Second, it quotes one man as saying he reacts viscerally to criticisms from women and then asserts that this is typical behavior for men. Third, it says society is sexist in ways it doesn't understand, asserts men are extremely sensitive to criticism from women, and then calls them primal and invokes male privilege. This is hashtag feminism as its worst. It's building flimsy pretexts on top of anecdotal evidence, and hiding it in an article about harassment women face in an attempt to lend it some sort of legitimacy. It's as bad as the "think of the children!" excuses used to pass laws, and just as insidious because it is automatically above reproach in exactly the same way. It's clearly demonstrated right here in the way any comment at all that disagrees with the author is immediately set upon with downvotes, rather than reasonable discourse.

by Zikes 12y ago

arrrg 12y ago

Not all men, eh? Don’t be so sensitive, grow a thicker skin! Is it really so hard for you to believe that you can’t understand – at least not completely – the situation someone is in? I would never be so arrogant as to believe that I, as someone who is straight, understand how it is to grow up gay, for example.

Zikes 12y ago
It's good to see that sloganeering and thought-terminating cliches will drive what could have been a proper debate on the issue. I guess there's no room at all for dissenting opinions, especially when they point out hypocrisies or bring counter evidence to the discussion.
- arrrg 12y ago
  What hypocrisies? There are none. You are imagining those. When there is something you cannot understand it’s proper to address that with “Men just don’t …” That’s ok. It’s no claim that all men act disgustingly, it’s only a claim that men don’t understand. That’s also completely unrelated to the “What can you – as a man – do to help?” part. I mean, where is the connection there. You are saying very confusing things.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    Hypocrisy is saying men should not tell women how to feel, and then following that up with an entire article telling men how to feel and behave. Pretty sure I didn't imagine that.
    - arrrg 12y ago
      I don’t think you quite understood what that article was talking about … you seem quite confused. I’m sorry.
      - Zikes 12y ago
        If I seem confused to you, that is a failing on both our parts. Let's take a moment to correct that. On the issue of the author's hypocrisy, I have clearly stated the contradictions in the article which satisfy the definition of the term. I don't think there is any confusion on that and after another read I don't think my comments on that point specifically could lead you to believe I'm confused about that issue. So, what is it exactly that makes you think I'm confused? Was it anything in particular that I've said, or perhaps since you think I don't understand the article as a whole, do you think I'm making the wrong points entirely?
        arrrg 12y ago
        The linked article gives men actionable advice on how to support women. It does not tell men what their experience is.
    - laserDinosaur 12y ago
      And now you are on hacker news telling people how they should feel. How hypocritical of you.
      - Zikes 12y ago
        Today I learned that calling out people's sexist propaganda is actually telling people how they should feel. I am enlightened, you should feel proud of yourself. (whoops, sorry) (not really)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

lukasb 12y ago

Pretend for the moment we're in some crazy mirror world where women are frequently mistreated, in ways that many well-meaning men don't see. In this world, it makes sense for a woman to lecture those well-meaning men about empathy - to ask them not to tell women what to feel - because they're just missing some basic information.

Zikes 12y ago
Pretend for a moment we're in some crazy mirror world where whites are frequently mistreated, in ways that many well-meaning blacks don't see. In this world, it makes sense for a white to lecture those well-meaning blacks about empathy - to ask them not to tell whites how to feel - because they're just missing some basic information. No, wait, that would be racist. But your version magically is not sexist? Edit: To the folks downvoting this without being able to offer a counterpoint: that strong negative emotion you're feeling? That's called cognitive dissonance.
- Rudism 12y ago
  I think you're being downvoted because you may have misunderstood the parent comment and replied with an analogy that makes no sense.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    There is no misunderstanding. The parent comment is trying to reinforce the practice of pitting the genders against each other and continues to argue that men need condescendingly "lectured" on the matter. My change in wording is meant to show how ridiculous a notion that is. Sexist remarks in articles such as this are getting a free pass because at one time feminism served a purpose, and today's hypersensitive political-correctness puts it above reproach. But when you take those same statements and put them on an axis of racism, their nature is revealed.
    - scott_s 12y ago
      The view of the piece's author is that there are things going on that women experience that some men are not aware of. She is trying to explain those things. You feel this is being "condescendingly lectured", and I don't see a way around it. Being receptive to someone explaining something to you requires that you: 1. acknowledge you do not know or understand that thing; 2. acknowledge that the other person does; 3. are willing to receive that knowledge from the other person. If you are not willing to grant any one of those, you will feel the other person is being condescending.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Zikes 12y ago
It's making sweeping, disparaging generalizations about the male gender.

Steko 12y ago

Am I wrong that this would have been the top upvoted comment on HN 5 years ago? If so maybe that counts as a tiny bit of progress/small strides. Or maybe this will be the top voted when I come back later, /sigh...

Zikes 12y ago
If you disagree with any of the points I've made, I'm all ears. I did not make that comment in some lame attempt to troll or stir up controversy. I have presented my case against using the harassment of women in gaming as an excuse to target and harass the male demographic, and I'm willing to discuss it further with anyone that's interested.
- sp332 12y ago
  As a male, I didn't feel targeted by the article. I don't think the article was anti-men, it was just pro-women which is not the same thing. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of harassment I could get as a result of the article.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    > I’ve personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion. > A male friend of mine that develops AAA games told me, "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly. I’m trying to get better about it." I don’t think his is a unique experience. > We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out. I don't know how anyone, male or female, could read that excerpt and not be offended. First, it starts out by basically asserting the premise that men do not get rape threats. Second, it quotes one man as saying he reacts viscerally to criticisms from women and then asserts that this is typical behavior for men. Third, it says society is sexist in ways it doesn't understand, asserts men are extremely sensitive to criticism from women, and then calls them primal and invokes male privilege. This is hashtag feminism as its worst. It's building flimsy pretexts on top of anecdotal evidence, and hiding it in an article about harassment women face in an attempt to lend it some sort of legitimacy. It's as bad as the "think of the children!" excuses used to pass laws, and just as insidious because it is automatically above reproach in exactly the same way. It's clearly demonstrated right here in the way any comment at all that disagrees with the author is immediately set upon with downvotes, rather than reasonable discourse.